Candice (00:02.038)

Welcome back to the Power in Purpose podcast. It's me, your host Candice. And today we're talking about ideal clients, but we're not talking about ideal clients in maybe the ways that you've heard me discuss it in the past. And of course, my guest today, how you've heard both of us talk about ideal clients. We think that ideal clients are changing.

And maybe just maybe your ideal client doesn't exist and you need to do something differently now. Today for 2025. Now I am joined today by a very special guest. You know, Amanda Schuman from Carrie Love Designs. has, she's like the designer of choice.

in the wedding world. And I have to be honest, I can instantly spot a Carrie Love Designs brand when I'm scrolling my feed. I know that she, like her hand was in it. She's got such great styles, such great taste. And she is an expert brand strategist and designer for creatives, not just wedding pros, but she loves her wedding pros. She's the founder and CEO of Carrie Love Designs, a fully remote digital marketing agency for creative small businesses.

With over 100 success stories, her team of designers and copywriters helped creatives like you craft a brand that stands out from the crowd so they can make more doing what they love. Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda Shuman (01:35.25)

Thank you so much for having me. love that was a great introduction.

Candice (01:38.807)

Thank you. I'm these lives, so I'm a little nervous about it. I express that to Amanda as well. was like, if I mess this up, I know you'll let me do a retake, but that went pretty good. Amanda, I'm so happy to have you on the show today. We're talking about one of our equally favorite topics, our mutually favorite topics, ideal clients. And a topic that I think we can both agree has been like talk.

Amanda Shuman (01:48.828)

But dude, I felt so special.

Candice (02:03.85)

to death, but for good reason, knowing who your clients are is really important.

Amanda Shuman (02:10.726)

Yeah, and I feel like this is so timely before we hit play on there, I was telling her we're kind of going through the same thing. So it's a very timely episode. It's very top of mind for me. And so I'm excited to chat about this and maybe influence a new way of thinking.

Candice (02:28.958)

Amanda, which Amanda's not saying is that she is going through a rebrand and shaking some things up in her business and expanding. so obviously when you do that, ideal clients has to be one of the major things you think about.

And so she's doing this right now in her own business. And I was telling her she needs to have like a podcast episode or a series of like behind the scenes when a brand designer rebrands. What does it really look like?

Amanda Shuman (02:56.724)

Yeah, and that's a great question. And you know, one of the first things whenever I knew I get asked this question a lot, especially when I tell people I'm going through rebrand, they're like, well, how did you know that it was time to rebrand? And the first thing that comes to my mind is one, like expanding upon our idle client. And I'm sure we'll get more into the weeds of what that means. But also, I launched our website that we have

currently in 2021. And I have been so proud of that website and loving it up until a few months ago. And now like I still love the design of it, but I just look at it now. And whenever I think to, you know, are the idle client that we want to be reaching, I'm like, this website doesn't serve me well anymore. It's not getting me closer to my, my goals of who I want to be working with.

And so those are the first two things that kind of gave me that inkling.

Candice (04:00.318)

Yeah, the courage to be like, all right, I'm going to rip the bandaid off because rebranding is a huge undertaking and reshifting things around in your business is such a huge undertaking. You you help your clients walk through it and you know how difficult it is for them. I can only imagine what it's like for you and like just the behind the scenes thinking through making decisions. It's definitely got to be challenging.

Amanda Shuman (04:26.704)

Yeah, it gives, it always gives me a renewal appreciation. I don't know if that's a real word, but what our clients go through because it does, and even for this rebrand, you know, we're not really changing up the design of like the brand itself. And coming from a brand designer, that's like the least important part to me that I'm like, don't even know if that's going to change.

Candice (04:32.47)

Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (04:52.356)

But even moving through all the other aspects of like, the idle client and that changes your services and that changes the experience and what tools and platforms you're using and where you're marketing at. you just like I can continue going on.

Candice (04:54.944)

Yeah.

Candice (05:05.09)

And just your messaging too. Yeah. And there's so much that goes into it. It definitely is a snowball for sure. Well, let's, let's start talking about ideal clients. And I would love to know from your perspective, what does an ideal client look like in the wedding industry today? 2024? What are, and do you feel like they're changing at all?

Amanda Shuman (05:32.984)

Yeah, I do feel like they're changing. And for me, I have said this time and time again that you don't need more clients, you need ideal clients. And whenever I say that you need ideal clients and the difference between just a client and an ideal client is somebody who's going to help progress your business forward. We've all taken on those clients where, okay, we want the cash, we want the income.

but the style's not right, it's not a right fit for where I want to go, or even referrals. An ideal client, should one, be able to put it on your portfolio, you should be really proud of it, the referrals that come from the wedding should be people that you want to continue working with. And I think those are kind of the monikers of a great ideal client versus just a regular client.

Candice (06:30.166)

When you think about somebody who is just getting started in their business or in that first year or two, which we have a lot of listeners who are in that,

that stage of business, they're likely looking towards some of their heroes in the industry, some of their major competitors that they want to compete against and looking at the ideal clients that they're booking and aspiring to book those clients. That feels a little out of reach when you're kind of just getting started. So do you think that there's a state like do you think that our ideal clients evolve over time based on kind of the stage of business that we're at?

Amanda Shuman (07:07.892)

Absolutely, and I mean I've even seen that in my own business and I I don't know if you agree with this or not. I tell people all the time I'm like that first year of business or even two years you take on any and every project that you can because you don't know what your idle client is going to be unless you've gone through different types of clients different types of events, know for for even event planners like if you don't do corporate

social events, weddings, and you don't even know if weddings are, you know, where you light up.

Candice (07:43.382)

Yes, true. I think there's a there's like a bit of shame sometimes when somebody is just getting started and they're they're trying to reach the ideal like mother load of client, the perfect in their eyes client with the great style, the great budget, the great everything. And that can be difficult to attain when you're just getting started. And there's no shame in doing being scrappy. think in fact, we have to get a little bit more scrappy in business sometimes and test things out, try things out, especially when you're starting up and

recognize like each client that you get the chance to work with should hopefully be some kind of stepping stone into like a certain percentage better even just 1 % better for the next client that you book.

Amanda Shuman (08:26.964)

I definitely with the getting scrappy part. I have been doing this for officially seven years, going on eight years. And we have, you know, a huge client list at this point. You know, my my bio should be probably updated to 200 plus success stories at this point. And I will tell you just this year, I have taken on a pro bono large project.

Candice (08:44.044)

Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (08:54.482)

because I'm looking forward to the future and I'm saying, I want to work with this type of client. I need something like this in my portfolio and I'm going to get dirty. I'm gonna do the work and I'm going to take a hit financially in order to make the connections and have this project in my portfolio. And I don't like it whenever you see people on threads or whatever and they're like,

The price is the price. Like I'm not doing it for free or you know what? Like sometimes you have to play chess, not checkers, and you have to think strategy and not just the price of that particular event or project, but what it's going to bring to you long term.

Candice (09:35.561)

yeah.

Candice (09:47.594)

I agree a thousand percent. Playing chess versus playing checkers are two different games. And you can instantly tell somebody in business who's playing chess versus playing checkers. And you have to play checkers maybe to get started with chess. So I don't want anybody to feel bad about their circumstances. But I think what Amanda and I both are saying is it's okay to get scrappy and it's okay to say yes to things, not just for the money's sake, but for the other benefits that can help bring you

you even better business or expose you to a different type of client or new people or just open doors. I mean, I can draw a direct line to a lot of the great success I had as a planner. I can draw that line to people and to opportunities that didn't pay or didn't pay well, but they paid in other things, other opportunities or other connections that I made.

Amanda Shuman (10:35.667)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda Shuman (10:43.42)

Yeah, and I think something too that goes in the same vein as that is, at least I hear this, is styled shoots get a bad rap. Like, don't do styled shoots. Like, styled, whoa, styled shoots. I'm like, that could be a great way to build up your portfolio to showcase the type of weddings that you want to do in order to get to where you want to go. That you don't need the, something I think the wedding industry is,

infamous for is listening to other people's opinions and making business decisions based on what Susan down the street is doing. Who knows zero about business or about your business in particular. And it literally drives me nuts. We have clients through this all the time where they're like, so I showed Sally and Beth and Christina, my website design, and they think this, this, this, and this. I'm like,

Candice (11:21.6)

Yes. Yes.

Candice (11:27.308)

Yes. Yep.

Amanda Shuman (11:41.393)

Well, tell Sally, Beth and Christine, like they're not your ideal client. Quit showing your competitors and your friends in the industry what you're doing, because like if unless they are in a position to where you want to be and they can show you a roadmap of how they got there, then don't listen.

Candice (11:50.441)

God.

Candice (12:00.18)

I, we agree on so much. It's actually shocking. I don't want our episode to turn into, to, to off topic conversations, but I very much agree with you. And this is why having like a board of directors for your business, people who understand where you're going, what your big goals are also understand the industry and how to, what strategies apply to you versus which ones won't work.

and help guide you in those directions I think is so important. But even that isn't always the answer. I wish more wedding pros trusted their gut and their intuition when making decisions about their business. I truly believe like

Most of us who have lasted longer than a year or two in business have what it takes to go the distance. And we can figure things out by just following our gut and our intuition most of the time. I wish wedding pros just listen to their gut about clients, whether to say yes or no. I wish they listened to their gut about their business decisions, strategies, marketing, all different types of things on a daily basis. You're better served by your gut than some random guru on thread.

who doesn't know shit about your business. Okay, so back to ideal clients. We both agree that ideal clients are changing. I'd love to talk a little bit about in thinking through the next iteration of our businesses, we've got changing dynamics in the marketplace, we have new couples entering the fold, we have changing generations. How should wedding pros

Amanda Shuman (13:16.454)

Yes, absolutely.

Candice (13:43.566)

be thinking about ideal clients today as Gen Z enters the chat? do we need to be thinking forward on?

Amanda Shuman (13:52.124)

Yeah, Gen Z, they have been entering the chat and they will continue every single year. And so we need to really adapt to the generation that for a lot of us is the first time that we are marketing to a generation that we are not a part of. know, Gen Z grew up fully immersed in like the digital world and they are not our peers, you know, so to speak. And so

A couple of things I think that we should be thinking forward to for marketing to them. And before we hit play on this episode to something else I want to make sure that we cover as well is there are two different ways that you can go. I think that you can go with ideal clients. You can either go super specific on who your ideal client is and really go all in. Like I was telling you, we have one client that we just launched recently.

their branding and their brand message is super specific to like unconventional, the rebels. Like they are looking for definitely somebody who's having, you know, that Harry Potter wedding or whatever, whatever's cool now for Gen Z. They're looking for something very specific. Or you can go a different route and you can kind of open up and be less ideal client oriented, but more personality focused.

Candice (15:03.681)

Right.

Amanda Shuman (15:20.336)

more of a personal brand for you and the business brand that comes with it.

Candice (15:27.988)

interesting. I feel like there's such a shift there because we were we've been told to niche niche niche like get super specific. You do Harry Potter weddings that start at 4pm that only serve fish that have this type of you know color palette like you have to get so niche and it's almost like you have an opportunity to de -niche a little bit if that's where you feel called to in your business if it makes sense for your marketplace things like that.

Amanda Shuman (15:53.076)

Yeah, and that kind of leads straight into with Gen Z really embracing that authenticity over perfection. I think for a long time, if you look back on like Instagram, you know, what circa 2015, 2016, where everything was like perfectly curated, showing no behind the scenes, you only showed the final product that now we're embracing that authenticity that

messy middle, so to speak, that behind the scenes, not everything being shown to perfection, but humanizing each other and showing more of the personality behind the business brand.

Candice (16:33.6)

Yeah, I love personality driven branding, personality driven marketing. In a upcoming episode, we have Akua.

who is a storytelling strategist and she talks a lot about infusing your own personal stories into your brand. And it's just to what you're saying, Amanda, it's about adding personality. One of the things that I think sometimes wedding pros feel discouraged by is like, how can we stand out from the crowd when everyone's chasing the same ideal clients? So therefore, like all of our messaging, all of our brand, all of our,

everything that we're putting out marketing wise, messaging wise, then all starts to look the same, right? Because we're chasing after the same people and, and we're also listening to the same podcasts. And so like, not to like call myself out, but I do see that an interesting factor at play, right? You're getting the same advice, you're implementing the same strategies, things just kind of blend together. How do we stand out?

Amanda Shuman (17:39.142)

Yeah, I think this goes back to the personality factor of like really being bold about what makes you different and about infusing your personality into it. Like not being afraid to get to one, pull out parts of your personality and really be the main character. Like there are certain parts of my personality that whenever I go on stage or I'm speaking or whatever, like

Candice (18:00.064)

Mm -hmm

Amanda Shuman (18:06.264)

I really, put on my red lipstick or I put on my bold lipstick color and I turn into, I don't want to say a different person because it's still me, but it's a personality, know? It's highlighting certain aspects of your personality that's going to make you memorable. And so I think.

Candice (18:18.924)

Right.

Candice (18:23.648)

It's like you're Sasha Fierce. It's your Sasha Fierce character. You have Beyonce and then you have Sasha Fierce. So we all have a bit of the same in us, right? Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (18:31.462)

Yeah. And so it's highlighting, highlighting that and getting also pairing that personality, but also getting really clear on what you do, like specifically what makes you different and stand out. I actually just had, and I think a great way to go about this is talking to past clients and what really stood out to them. I just had a conversation with one of our clients.

And she was telling me, she's like, you know, before we hired you, we interviewed three other people. And what really made us choose to go with you is one, the personalization that you put into everything, even whenever you sent over the proposal, like it had a personalized video from you, but also like your bubbly personality, you know, your smile and how you're able to clearly explain like your process in the value that we get from it. And those are things that

I wouldn't have thought of on my own, but I mean this client hired us three, four months ago and that's still stuff that stuck out to them to this day. So I'm taking notes whenever they're talking and I'm like, how can I do more of that?

Candice (19:36.928)

Yeah. Yeah.

Candice (19:45.142)

Well, this is an interesting maybe suggestion here for anybody listening who is trying to figure out like your clients are changing, your business has grown over the last year, maybe you're changing, maybe you're shifting in a new direction like or in a revised direction like Amanda is. And I even feel similarly, so I feel called in the same ways. Maybe part of figuring out what your next move is, is to talk to some of your most recent very best clients and ask them like, what about?

about us made you hire us? Like what is it about us that really stuck out to you and get their answer? And that could be how you, they double down on that.

Amanda Shuman (20:25.916)

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think too, also we, we touched on, and I see this pop up all the time on threads. The whole texting versus not texting thing, like, do we text our clients or do we not text our clients? That in and of itself, I feel like is something that wedding pros get hung up on. And I would just like text the damn client. Like it's not that serious. And I would probably, from a client side,

Candice (20:52.972)

I know. Well, you're, yeah.

Amanda Shuman (20:57.838)

We had hail damage to our car and we were looking at different places to to get our car fixed at. This one place called me and I think I was in a meeting or something. I couldn't, you know, couldn't answer the call. And then after they called me, she texted me and she's like, hey, this is such and such from the repair place. She's like, I'd like to set up a time for you to come in to bring your car so we can, you know, give you a quote. And they were the only person that texted us.

And of course, me being the millennial, I set everything up through text and I never talked to the person. And they would have not gotten our business if they had not texted me. So you just have to change with the times. Like your idle clients are changing. How they communicate are changing. You cannot be stuck in your way and like, well, I'm not texting our clients, you know, just as an example. Like, OK, then watch your business die. Like because you wouldn't text somebody.

Candice (21:32.223)

Yeah.

Candice (21:54.518)

Yeah, I see people and I understand the hesitation to change with the times. I totally get it. But it is giving like when in business when there was that shift in technology came into play and we all got emails and we weren't used to emails and people couldn't imagine doing business with emails.

And we have taken huge leaps since then in terms of communication and conversation with clients. And so it's giving that. It's giving like in the 90s when people were so focused on phone calls and fax machines and like snail mail and the old school way of doing things, we, so much of our businesses has changed since then. There are some other aspects that I feel like a lot of wedding pros need to get on board with when it comes to communication with your ideal clients, marketing to your ideal clients in the ways they prefer

to communicate and be marketed to because here's the deal if you're not willing to do it they won't hire you.

Like it's really that kind of cut and dry. If you're not willing to meet them where they need to have their needs met, they won't hire you. Their parents might hire you. Some of our fun millennial friends may hire you, but as things start to transition and change, you're going to notice an even drastica dip in sales if you're not willing to compromise. And there are ways that you can compromise.

But I agree with you long story short Amanda. I totally agree that communication style is definitely one of those things I'd love to know like

Candice (23:27.932)

What should we be focused on when we're thinking about ideal clients? Somebody listening to this is like, okay, I'm in this stage right now where I'm revaluating things. I need to make a shift. I see the shift happening. I need to emulate it in my business. What are some things we can do to sit down and start wrapping our head around who our ideal clients might be and like, well, since they don't really, like what does exist in the world of ideal clients today and what should we be focused on in our business of uncovering who these people are so we can talk to them?

Amanda Shuman (23:58.324)

A exercise that I have a lot of people go through is a T chart method. I think I like it. It's the best way to think about this. So think about the most recent three to five clients that you had or just like the ones that come to the top of your mind. So three to five clients, just write them down. Don't put too much thought into it. Just write them down. And then a T chart. So, you know, where you have like the

Candice (24:18.999)

Right.

Amanda Shuman (24:27.368)

the heading and then the line that goes down the middle. So you're gonna put on one side, this is really, it's gonna sound silly, but I promise you it works. We've had lots of people go through this. You put on one side your likes and on the other side your dislikes. And then think about for each, so each individual couple is going to have their own T chart. Think about the likes and the dislikes. And this can be anywhere from where they heard about you, the sales process, the actual event planning.

to off -boarding, like I want you to sit down and commit like 10 minutes to thinking about this project from beginning to end. And what we've had a lot of people realize going through this is they'll start to see these reoccurring patterns. So one story that comes to my mind is one of our clients was doing this and she was going through.

And she realized that all of her clients were in some sort of like. Helping position, so like nurses were a big one, like they were they were the helpers. So if you think of people like nurturing, helping, she started to notice that throughout all of like the her favorite clients, all the clients that she was writing down. And so this and change this in turn changed her messaging to where she turned her messaging into like

y 'all are the people taking care of everybody else. You are the ones that are the givers. Let us take care of you. Wow, you're busy taking, yeah. And it's like that wonderful thing. And that right there, she's talking to a specific clientele, but also her messaging is going to sound a little bit different than what the competitors are.

Candice (26:02.198)

Ooh, that's good. That's good.

Candice (26:17.078)

This is such a great exercise. How often do you think a small business should be doing an ideal client exercise like this? how often should we be refining the people that we want to serve in our business?

Amanda Shuman (26:30.834)

I don't think that there's necessarily like a timeframe. I know for me, cause I was, I've told y 'all we're going through something very similar right now. And going back to what you were saying, it's very much like a gut intuition feeling to where there's something that will kind of set off that spark in your mind. And then you have to go back and think like, you know, is it this, could it be this? And it kind of leads you down a path. But I don't think that there's a very specific.

like timeframe in mind. I know for us, I was just like, hey, you know, this is kind of where we're at. These are my beefs right now. And this is my goal and where I want to take it. And is this idle client aligning with where I want to go in the future?

Candice (27:19.008)

Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. I used to say, and I'm curious if you agree with this or not. So give me your honest opinion. But I have said many times in the past that your ideal client is you in a lot of ways, but just with more money in the wedding industry. So it's like you, the things you like, your values, personality traits. I mean, they're their own person. They're not like a carbon copy of you, but they're basically, they would be your friend. They'd be your rich friend.

Amanda Shuman (27:46.42)

And they were weird.

Candice (27:49.036)

They'd be your rich friend with a boat, maybe a plane, maybe a jet, like they're your friend with a PJ. Would you agree with that?

Amanda Shuman (27:57.158)

Yeah, I would agree with that for the most part, because of course you're not going to want to spend a lot of time planning a wedding with somebody who you don't like naturally get along with. And so I've never thought about it. But yeah, you're probably right.

Candice (28:07.83)

Right. What do you think comes first? Choosing our ideal clients or building our businesses or brands? I guess this is the chicken meets the egg kind of conversation, but you've done this for so many years and you've helped so many businesses figure out their business branding. So what do you think comes first?

Amanda Shuman (28:32.722)

Yeah, I love this question. And that's exactly what I thought of when I reversed asked it is this is the chicken or the egg. And I really had to, I really have to stop and think and going back to my experience that I, in every single case, it's always been idle client driven. So with whenever I very first started out,

Candice (28:37.302)

Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (29:00.404)

We were serving everyone and anyone. Shout out to Michelle Ganey of La Miga Events. She was my first like big wedding client. I don't even think that, I don't know, she knows that I talk about her still to this day or that she knew she was taking a chance on me. But she was my introduction to the wedding industry. And I fell in love with

Candice (29:06.602)

you

Candice (29:14.515)

I love that.

love Michelle. Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (29:24.604)

just like the beautiful images and like the, you know, romanticizing the wedding industry. And so I like to say that the wedding industry chose me, but it was, was an ideal client. And then I crafted everything around serving the wedding industry. That was like, helped me decide where to network at, what groups to, I mean, back then it was like Facebook groups. So what Facebook groups to join, what Twitter, we did what the Twitter chats or Twitter threat, like.

Candice (29:51.545)

yeah, my god, this is like old school shit here.

Amanda Shuman (29:55.386)

Yes, what periscopes to show off.

Candice (29:58.79)

Yeah, periscope. my god. I was I was deathly afraid of going live on periscope. Can you believe can you believe that? I never did it once I wanted to so badly, but I don't recall ever actually having the guts to do it. I was so terrified

Amanda Shuman (30:12.848)

I think I did it. that like having the wedding industry in mind helped me decide all of those things. So I very much think that it's ideal client driven and then your branding follows that.

Candice (30:26.838)

Yeah.

Okay, so I would love to just create a quick little checklist for somebody listening of some things that they need to think about when they're creating that T chart. Maybe some of the qualities they want to dig into about their ideal client, some things that they should consider. And I'd love to hear from you. What are some of the things that you think wedding pros should focus on when creating that T chart and just evaluating who their ideal client is?

going to be like the next generation of that client? What are some of the characteristics or like, I don't know, profile characteristics of their clients that they should be zeroed in on both personality but also like wedding focused.

Amanda Shuman (31:15.124)

Yeah, and that's why I said like spend 10 minutes on this because there is so much detail that you can go into where if you're only spending like two minutes you're like highlighting only the big things. But there are so many things that you can start to highlight and it can be something as silly as what might seem silly as like hobbies is like, you know, my couples were really into craft beer and like do it like, you know, the things that might sound silly. But once you get into the

Candice (31:26.401)

Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (31:44.244)

personalization and the personality piece of your brand and connecting with those ideal clients, you can start to include even like micro copy into your website. That will be like talking about I am trying to get something like off the cuff with craft beer. Right. But you can create these micro copy moments of something that's even like a hobby.

Candice (32:04.396)

beer. No, yeah, craft beer. Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (32:12.178)

that's going to relate to that ideal client. So whenever they're looking at tabs and tabs of wedding pros, there's gonna be something that was posted on your site, like something that you said in the copy that's gonna make them be like, like that's me. Like she's talking to me. And that's really whenever people lean in and they want to learn more about you and your services.

Candice (32:29.344)

Right?

Candice (32:34.912)

Yeah, those are like those connectors. We get connected by commonalities that we share as human beings, as people, and it helps people slow their scroll. They feel a connection with you. And it is kind of what separates you from the competition in a lot of ways. I like to tell wedding pros too, like take a look at a wedding that you want to produce or photograph or be a part of and kind of start to dissect the details of that event, what the client had, what they spent money on, where

their priorities were and you could look at some of your very best clients in your business and know that intimately or maybe your ideal client isn't somebody that you've worked with yet. So you look towards someone who's working with the types of clients you'd want to work with and kind of put your investigative hat on and just try to figure out what is it about.

that wedding that they had, what did they prioritize? Where did they seem to put their focus? What was the vibe, the essence of it? Because ultimately you want to bottle that up and you want to sell it to the next Gen Z couple with good messaging, personality, copy, and good marketing. But I love looking at just the events that you desire to plan, but going deeper and trying to figure out what about that event.

Did the client prioritize that I need to speak to in my marketing or that I need to showcase visually on my website or that I need to talk about on Instagram?

Amanda Shuman (34:05.136)

And we've actually had a client that crafted their whole brand message around something similar to that. So they noticed that all of the types of events that they had either planned in the past or something that they desire to plan, that it wasn't about the couple. They wanted to create the best party in years. Like the party that everybody would be talking about that was everybody's favorite wedding that, you

everybody wanted to attend. And so they created their brand message around that. And that influenced like what pictures we used on the website is we are showing pictures of, all of the guests having fun, them like, you know, chugging shots out of a, you know, a boot or something. don't know, something ridiculous, but it was all pictures of the, not the couple, but of the clients having like the time of their life of them like jumping into pools and you know, things like

Candice (34:46.732)

Yep.

Candice (34:52.052)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (35:03.78)

of that nature because their couples weren't concerned about having the most beautiful wedding day. It was about all of their guests having, you the night of their life.

Candice (35:15.362)

yeah, 100%. mean, if you're sort of business marketing messages is like the party of the year or let's get this party started or a party to your, you know, pants fall off and then everything on your website is very demure. You know, everything is really, you know, classic and kind of fancy and it doesn't look like anybody got wasted at the wedding or it was like hanging from a chandelier.

Amanda Shuman (35:38.046)

Yes.

Candice (35:40.108)

there's going to be a disconnect there. They're going to be like, what they think it means to get the party started is to like have a glass of Pinot Grigio where what I want to do is swing from the chandelier. So your messaging needs to meet your visuals. And sometimes if you're visual like me, seeing it, like seeing an image of your ideal clients wedding, or seeing an image from that wedding can help to spark the written message. So you can kind of do it a bit in reverse.

Amanda Shuman (36:08.625)

Yeah, absolutely.

Candice (36:10.208)

Yeah. I wonder what your advice would be to somebody who, I have two wedding pros in my mind right now.

The first is somebody who doesn't get like all the details of the day. They just see a slice of it. So they're not the planner or the caterer or venue or somebody who's more invested. Maybe they're the calligrapher or they're seeing just a sliver of it. So they don't know a lot of what goes into the planning of the wedding and all these fine details. So it's hard for them to kind of figure that out or to understand it. And then I'm also thinking of the wedding pro.

who's never worked with their ideal client. Like this is not somebody that they've ever been hired by. So they feel like, I don't freaking know what their priorities are or like who they are or anything like that. Is there any techniques you give your clients or that you would suggest like either of these pros do to try to get some of this information?

Amanda Shuman (37:06.813)

Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to my mind and maybe it's because it's top of mind because it's something I've been invested in this year is this is where those connections and networking really come into play. Especially if you're something like the calligrapher and you're like wanting to serve your clientele better. This is way that I would position it if you want to like, hey, talk to the wedding planner and be like, hey, you know, I...

I have this wedding that I'm working with you. I would love to go to like the venue tour or, you know, the other one that I'm blanking on the walkthrough. And I would, you know, love to just get to know this couple better and kind of see the process. And so that way on the wedding day, I can, you know, serve them better. And I think as the if you're presenting it to the planner that way, like as a team where everybody wants to produce the best day possible.

Candice (37:45.985)

Yep.

Candice (37:56.736)

Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (38:05.412)

I don't foresee the planner being like, absolutely not. You cannot come walk the venue or do anything with us. And so I think that's a great way is to work with the planner in that aspect. And even if you don't have a wedding planned and you're like, really want to work with this type of clientele, once again, I still think that you can lean on connections.

As long as you don't come to planners or anybody else and expect them to do extra work for free. But if you position it and be like, do you do consulting? You know, can I pay you for an hour of your time and, you know, talk with them and have a conversation and ask, you know, how did you get these weddings? How do you market? Like whatever questions you want to know. As long as you're not coming to them and be like, hey, can we have a coffee chat? Whenever really you're just wanting to pick their brain.

Candice (38:59.584)

Right.

Amanda Shuman (39:05.374)

But if you come to it and you ask for consulting, I think that that changes the game.

Candice (39:05.591)

Yeah.

Candice (39:10.73)

It does, and even paying them for their time and their expertise, you know, they've been working with clients for so many years and they've cleaned a lot of knowledge. And, you know, I think it's important to compensate someone for their time or at least at the very least offer. But I love that idea. I definitely would suggest reaching out to a planner.

or somebody who's in that kind of role who gets to see everything on the budget to help give you a better sense of the types of clients that you want to work more with. you can even position it as like, really want to get to know the clients that you work with so I can serve them better through you.

Amanda Shuman (39:48.947)

Yeah.

Candice (39:49.206)

Like how I could be the best calligrapher for you and the clients you serve by understanding your clients a little bit better. That is music to a wedding planner's ears because wedding planners are the honestly the underdogs a lot of the time when it comes to wedding planning. I mean just the whole entire relationship aspect of the team of vendors. They work so hard.

Amanda Shuman (40:00.244)

Thank you.

Candice (40:14.934)

for clients and a lot of vendors are really freaking hard to work with. You make yourself

Amanda Shuman (40:19.912)

Thank

Candice (40:22.024)

easy. You actually say that I want to go the extra mile for your clients and make you the wedding planner look good. Girl, she is you will be her first choice for calligraphy always because you make it easy for her. So that's like another way to kind of just let's sneakily but like smartly kind of ask for a little bit of information or attend that walkthrough like Amanda said.

Amanda Shuman (40:45.392)

Yeah, and even if you're we've had clients who, for like photographers, for example, they go through and they make sure that they get behind the scenes shots of every vendor. And then at the end of the wedding, they put together a gallery that's like specifically behind the scenes shots and they share it with all the other vendors. I can't tell you how much business they have probably millions of business at this point, just because they go the extra step and it probably takes them like.

Candice (41:10.053)

yeah.

Amanda Shuman (41:13.908)

in extra 10 to 30 minutes, but other vendors.

Candice (41:16.886)

Even if it took an extra day, it is worth that effort because of the referrals. And it's so fascinating because threads is such an interesting place to see conversation happen. And conversation happened with a new generation of wedding pros. I'm paying attention to what the Gen Z business owners are saying in the wedding industry. And it's much different than some of my values and beliefs. And that's okay. I think it's important to pay attention to what people are doing. But one interesting thing is how adverse photographers are becoming.

coming with sending images of the wedding to the people who were a part of it afterwards. I'm seeing so much pushback and I'm thinking like, okay, it's your copyright and I agree that you retain the rights and I also can understand being burned by vendors who don't credit and like not dealing with all of that.

Amanda Shuman (42:01.843)

Yeah.

Candice (42:07.628)

But you also are shooting yourself in the foot if you flat out refuse to share your images with other creatives who worked on that event with you because you become that photographer that we're not gonna refer to. Because girl, if I have to pay you for your images or if I have to go through hoops to try to get images, I'm not sending my clients to you.

Amanda Shuman (42:26.972)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And like I said, even if you don't, I agree with you, but even if you don't want to send like the whole gallery, like at least send over the gallery to where it's behind the scenes of other people. Because if you're the planner, you're the caterer, you're the calligrapher, like you don't always get to see your work in action and you don't get that content for even like social media. And so I, it's water off your back if they don't credit you in photos like that.

Candice (42:32.694)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (42:57.53)

that like you said it you're you're shooting yourself in the foot if you want to stay in the industry you have to go the extra mile in some of these aspects and not dig your heels in.

Candice (43:09.066)

Absolutely. And listen, for anybody listening who agrees with Amanda and I, this is an opportunity for you to shine too in a saturated marketplace by being somebody who is generous with how you work alongside the team of the day. So being a real team player, we're in it together. A wedding is stressful. Planning a wedding is stressful. Wedding days tend to be very stressful. I used to say when I showed up at the wedding to get the planning started for the day, I used to remind

everybody like we're here for the client. We're here for the client's best interest. But we also should have some fun today because we're at work. And it doesn't have to be stressful. It doesn't have to be miserable. We don't have to be, you know, nobody's ego needs to get in the way. We should just work together for the common good of enjoying our time and making sure the client is happy. So I feel like

you if that is your MO, you are already differentiating yourself in these weird times where everybody's being really freaking stingy and playing checkers and not chess by the way. just to use a reference that Amanda brought up at the very beginning of this episode.

Amanda Shuman (44:05.914)

Thank

Amanda Shuman (44:11.412)

Yeah.

Candice (44:21.378)

Also, I feel like threads is such a great place to like data mine to get the scoop and kind of get inside the heads and minds of couples because a lot of people are on threads talking about weddings and it's not all that complimentary sometimes but it's a good place to just kind of poke around and see what's happening. Do you agree?

Amanda Shuman (44:40.092)

I love threads. I have so much, I save so much stuff on threads that I want to use for like, you know, marketing, or I want to use it as, you know, a jump off to a podcast episode or real or something like for me, Instagram and other places can get very echo chambery. That threads is...

Candice (44:42.015)

Yes.

Candice (44:46.114)

Same.

Candice (45:04.522)

Yes, for sure.

Amanda Shuman (45:08.536)

where I see stuff all the time and I'm like, I've never heard that conversation or I've never thought of it that way or yeah. Yeah.

Candice (45:12.746)

Mm hmm. Let me tap in. Let me see what's going on. Typically, it's a big mix. There's a ton of self -righteousness over on threads too, which you kind of got to weed through a little bit to kind of get to the meat of things. Yes.

Amanda Shuman (45:29.212)

I will say remember that your business name is attached to it because there are so many times where I want to go off and like say something and I'm like my business name is attached to this. I do not want to be like being crazy on threads.

Candice (45:37.366)

Yep.

Candice (45:41.578)

No, no, have to put yourself in check, keep it professional. But it is an interesting place, I think, for wedding pros to hang out, to conversate, to see what other people are saying. But even if you don't want that industry chatter, which can skew really negative sometimes, and so I agree with kind of tuning it out, keeping things positive, making sure that your inputs are matching the outputs that you want to have.

It is an interesting place to see what people are saying about planning their wedding, because there are a good number of conversations happening over there. And people have the same misguided opinions that you would expect them to have, but it's interesting. And I think it can give you just more data and information as you're creating your ideal client avatars or the new iteration of them. That's all that, yeah.

Amanda Shuman (46:28.734)

Yeah, or even just new topics to talk about on social media that aren't the same like retired topics or yeah.

Candice (46:34.651)

Mm -hmm. Yes.

Yeah, gives you so much. There's so much interesting data and information, which brings up my final question to you, Amanda, because I know you love data and information and receipts when it comes to the things that you teach, but in the things that you talk about, how can we use data or analytics testimonials to fine tune how we target the types of clients that we want to work with and our overall marketing strategies?

What are some tips you have?

Amanda Shuman (47:09.128)

Something that we used to like print out testimonials, we would go on Google and we would print out Google testimonials from our clients and I would go through and I would read them and I would highlight stuff. Girl, now you can go into ChatGPT. can copy all of those reviews, go into ChatGBT and you can say like, what reoccurring themes do you see or what reoccurring words do you see in these?

Candice (47:25.288)

Yeah.

Amanda Shuman (47:38.312)

reviews and it will generate more than enough information that you need that's going to help you because people who are leaving reviews and for a lot of people, they're leaving reviews like weeks or months after your services have been rendered. So in order for them to talk about some of these things in their reviews, it had to be a standout moment in your service. And so I think that's the best place is

Candice (48:01.376)

Yep.

Amanda Shuman (48:06.91)

to go back to those reviews, see what people are saying, and even if you can, use that exact language in your marketing. We call it the voice of customer, and if you can use that voice of customer in your marketing, it's going to help you just connect and attract more people like that.

Candice (48:29.406)

yeah, testimonials are so powerful for your business, for understanding your ideal clients, for marketing, for copy, for making decisions. mean, you just think, they wrote something really nice about me. That's so nice. You don't realize that in between the lines, they're saying what they valued most about the services that you provided, what it is that really stood out to them about you and your team and why someone should hire you like them. Like, what about you?

you is the reason why the next client should hire you. I also love suggesting that you go back through some of your client questionnaires and look through those too, because it's not just a testimonial. And testimonials, don't always come, right? So that's kind of annoying when you really want that testimony from a client, because not only does it look great on Google, but it also helps you kind of get some great information. They don't always come. So going back to some of your client questionnaires, depending on how you onboard your clients or this thing

Amanda Shuman (49:08.582)

yeah.

Candice (49:29.13)

you send in the planning process or before the wedding can give you insight into their priorities, what they think, what they're valuing right now. And I love your tip about chat GBT because yeah, I used to do the same thing. mean, I'm still doing the same thing. So guess who's using chat GBT later this week to take a look at all my testimonials? Me.

Amanda Shuman (49:45.448)

you

Amanda Shuman (49:52.916)

And I think if we do want more testimonials that even if you incentivize people like hey I'll give you a free coffee like $10 gift card if you fill out this questionnaire and people are like hey what's in it for me like I'm sending you this questionnaire but or this this this testimonial that could be a great way to incentivize them to if you want more. Just another little quick tip.

Candice (50:06.837)

Of course.

Candice (50:13.782)

Yeah, I agree. People love an incentive. They need a reason to, it's funny because Gen Z, and millennials as well, rely so heavily on testimonials and reviews to make buying decisions. But when it comes to leaving their own testimonials or reviews, it's too much work. They're like, girl, I do not have the time. I don't have the time. I don't have the stamina. It's just interesting how that dynamic comes into play.

Amanda, it was so great to chat with you today. Unfortunately, our time is up, but I feel like you and I could chat about like a million different things. And we, there are some things that like bug us. There's a great radio station in Connecticut and they have a segment and it's called Tell Them Why You Mad.

Amanda Shuman (50:49.35)

Yes.

Candice (51:00.768)

and people call in and they just bitch, you know, they're calling in and they're like, I'm going to tell you why I'm mad. feel like Amanda and I could have a tell them why you mad session on the podcast and just like share some of our business like annoyances and stuff. But anyway, Amanda, thank you so much for being such a great guest today. I would love for you to share how our listeners can connect with you and learn more about what you do and, and chat with you outside of the podcast.

Amanda Shuman (51:12.113)

man.

Amanda Shuman (51:30.356)

Yeah, we're actually hosting in open house. And so if you want to come and learn more about like our process, how we work with our clients, our four phase branding process of how we lead them through brand strategy, brand design, website copy, all the way to launching and marketing. You know, we have produced probably well over 200 success stories at this point. And so I'm giving you like behind the scenes showing you client documents. We're going to have a very back to school

timely open house on September 19th. And so if you would like to attend that, can go to carilovedesigns .com slash open dash house.

Candice (52:12.756)

Amazing and I will link to that in the show notes so that you can go and RSVP to that amazing free event Amanda Thank you so much for being such a great guest. I'm sure we'll have you back on the podcast soon

Amanda Shuman (52:23.528)

I would love that.

Candice (52:25.526)

Guys, thanks so much for listening to today's episode of the show. I've linked everything inside the show notes and I would love to hear from you what you thought of today's episode and if you feel like your ideal clients are changing, so hit me up on Instagram. And I want to remind you as always, there is so much power in your purpose and I'll see you next week.