Candice (00:01.378)

Hey there, welcome back to the Power in Purpose podcast. I'm your host Candace and I have a very special episode for you today. A great interview with Jen from Tonic Sight Shop. Jen, welcome to the show.

Jen (00:15.132)

so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Candice (00:17.614)

I'm so happy you're here. I approached you about doing this episode, your hit list and your shit list for website design. I wanted to get your take and have some fun and talk through design trends, what we think is going to be trending in 2025, what we should be paying attention to. So I'm really excited to get your take on some of these design trends and what we should be focused on.

Jen (00:38.934)

I'm super excited. I just have to tell you, I'm going to be super upfront. I actually just started saying the word shit about a year ago because I was raised Southern Baptist and shit was like the worst word you could possibly say in my household home. So my mom, if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. I know that I've disappointed you. If you hear me say the word shit, just know that like I've changed as a human and we can all evolve. so yeah, if I, if I, if I look uncomfortable,

Candice (00:46.375)

You

Candice (01:02.37)

Yes.

Jen (01:06.39)

Just know that it's new for me. So I'm trying it out.

Candice (01:11.118)

The word shit is very on brand for me. So I'm corrupting you and I'll take full I will take full accountability for that. So if I hear from your mom, I will take all the blame. It's all my fault. If you guys are new to Jen, if you're if you have not met Jen before, she's the co founder and lead designer of tonic site shop, which is a template shop for the modern entrepreneur and you might have seen her work actually. So if you're not familiar with Jen, you've likely seen her work.

Jen (01:15.049)

You are!

Jen (01:21.502)

It's all Candace's fault. It's all Candace's fault. This is my first time.

Candice (01:41.164)

And she's worked with clients who you should be very familiar with Katie Mary, Jenna Kutcher, Chris loves Julia boss babe, my business coach, Amy Porterfield, Jillian Harris, and yours truly. I have a tonic site shop template. So I'm going to throw my name in there with those great names. Yes. And when she's not designing or marketing, she splits her time cooking, homeschooling, pouring cocktails, cocktails are a big part of her brand. So while shit might not be she loves a good cocktail, maybe even a mocktail.

Jen (01:56.992)

as well you should.

Candice (02:11.18)

trying to make Instagram fun again and writing Tonic's famous long and weird newsletter where she tells stories and nerds out about great marketing. So that is Jen in a nutshell. And today we're talking about websites and trends for 2025. But I thought before we kind of go into this rapid fire hit or shit list, I was wondering if we could chat about your process for

Jen (02:24.902)

It is.

Candice (02:39.17)

figuring out what's going to be on trend because you guys not only create templates for Canva and show it, but I feel like you guys are the trendsetters. You're the taste makers. All of the templates that you guys release sort of set the website trends for show it users and even other platforms. And dare I say even other designers follow your lead. So I want to know like, what's the method behind the madness of creating the templates you create?

Jen (03:06.646)

That's super kind of you to say, first of all. I'm honored by that assessment. And I appreciate it and I take it to heart because that's what we work really hard to accomplish. I definitely believe as designers, my job is to say, wait a second, what's coming, not just what's current. And so a large part of what we do at Tonic is really trying to trend forecast and say, what are other industries doing? It's not what are other designers doing in our industry? What's already been done? What are these big brands that have

budgets for marketing that start with B for a billion, what are they doing when it comes to their design and branding? So what's trending? Where do we think design is headed? And those are the footsteps that I want to follow. Because if you're just looking around your industry for inspiration, you're always going to be three or four or five or six or 10 steps behind. So for us, we're always looking at large corporate brands, especially in beauty, in travel.

hoteliers fashion, usually that's where they're going to be on the forefront of what's coming next. And so if you even look at the runways of, okay, like we're seeing a lot of menswear or we're seeing a lot of like weird irony, we're seeing a lot of personality. Those are the things that we take into consideration as we're building out our mood boards and our style guides for new templates. And so we start there with those big brands and then we take it pretty personal and we look at who is our consumer. We often name our consumers. We come up with a person and we come up with

who they, what they're struggling with, what they're looking for, the kinds of templates that they wish they had and what's not currently represented in our offerings. And so we really start building out this whole persona that then we can design for, because if you design a template for no one in particular, it's going to resonate with no one in particular. And so we really try to say, okay, who is this person and what would they love?

And then whenever I'm making design decisions, I can refer back to that and say, OK, what would this person, Sophia, what would Sophia really like here? Or what is she missing? Or how would this resonate with her? And so that gives us a client to design for, which is one of the hardest things when you're designing templates is you don't have a person and you have to keep in mind that it needs to be general enough. So we kind of take the opposite approach of like, we're not going to make it general. We're actually going to make it highly specific so that someone sees this template and goes, my gosh.

Jen (05:20.04)

It feels, like you just made this for me. Like, how did you know what was in my mind? And so that's kind of our creative process. And it really has helped us hone in not just on what's current, but what's going to be common in the future so that we can kind of stay ahead of the curve.

Candice (05:34.254)

I'd love to throw a question at you. Like what's maybe the weirdest thing you've ever been inspired by that was like the source of inspiration for a website template.

Jen (05:42.718)

I I have so many, I have so many weird things. I designed an entire website based on a lipstick tube at one point, just one lipstick tube. That was it. That was the entire inspiration. It was this like very cool black and white design. had like gold packaging and I was like, I want a website that feels like this. So that was one. Another one was an in-flight magazine that I saw on the way home from like Greece or something. And it was just this one page of the magazine and it was so beautiful.

And I was like, we need a website template that feels like this, that feels like very high fashion. Soap packaging, like one page of Bon Appetit magazine. Like there've been so many just weird random pieces, but if you notice like almost all of those are real world items. So very seldom do I see a website and say like, I'm gonna design a website that feels like this website.

Usually it's taking something that's totally separate or in another world or in another lane and saying like, how can we bring this into the web world?

Candice (06:43.798)

Yeah, it's so great to do that. It's very freeing because your sources of inspiration will never be confused with a competitor or something that is directly aligned with your business. And that means like you're just free to create and all the ideas that you have around what you're creating are just, they come from you. They come from how you see the world, your experiences and your source of inspiration. I think it helps to develop a lot of confidence behind the designs you put out too.

Jen (07:09.854)

It really does. so this are actually our latest template, the Fitzgerald that we had designed. I think that may be the one that you bought actually. We had all watched The Gentleman on Netflix and I was like, this is something, I want something this vibe that feels like a little old school, like a little English, a little London, a little Theo James. And I wanted something that feels like that or like salt burn, you know, that feels very like high end and like lux and like maybe a little creepy, but.

Candice (07:15.413)

It is, yeah.

Jen (07:35.424)

you know, with Jacob Alerti just lurking in the shadows somewhere. And so that was really the inspiration for the design. And then we started curating more inspiration of like type that felt like that, images that felt like that, but that was the world that we wanted to create. And that's one of the things that I think that people don't realize is that when you're designing a website, you're really world building. You're building this world that people want to inhabit and be in an experience. And so when you do that, when you successfully build a world,

really good real world things happen. Like people spend a lot more time on your website and they want to explore it and it feels cool and they don't leave. And all of sudden they're immersed in something that feels like your brand. And so I think that's something that we're always like, how can we just build this really cool world that people want to be a part of?

Candice (08:17.328)

my God, I love that. It's like me thinking about like when I'm playing the Sims or something and I'm creating like my reality, like what keeps me there, you know, the, the world's the gameplay that I'm playing and how you can relate that to your website. think that's such a fascinating way to look at your website and how can I create a website that somebody wants to stay on? Like somebody wants to be immersed in.

Jen (08:37.27)

Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the coolest things. mean, that's one of the most interesting bits of anecdotal evidence that we hear from our template clients all the time is the stat that they quote to me the most is like, wow, the time people spent on my website, like eight X or 20 X. And really that does two really great things. Number one, it tells Google, this is a hell of a website. You should rank it higher in Google. So it really is great for your SEO. But then secondly, like the more time someone spends with you online,

the more likely they are to buy from you. And so you're gonna see your conversion rates increase because by the time they're done with your website, they're pretty sure that you're either a great fit or you're not, but they're much more likely to fall in love if they've spent 20 minutes browsing your about page and your galleries and all of that stuff. They're like doing a full deep dive. So that's the power of a website that people want to just stay immersed in.

Candice (09:24.877)

Yeah.

Candice (09:28.78)

Yeah. When we're thinking about websites too, it's not just about the design, but also the functionality because in order to keep people there and in order for people to truly appreciate the design that you've created, your website has to be functional. I'm imagining that in the process of gathering inspiration, setting trends, understanding where website design is heading, you're also paying attention to functionality, how people might be interacting with tech or using websites. And that must play a big role in the

decisions you make for your templates.

Jen (10:01.142)

absolutely. I mean, it does not matter how beautiful something is if it doesn't work, then it's just frustrating, right? So the most frustrating thing that you can do for a consumer is ask them to do something over again or make it unclear where they need to click or hide something that doesn't make sense. And so really that's just the tension that you're always facing is how do we make it beautiful? But then how do we make it functional? Because function without beauty doesn't have a soul, right? But then beauty without function doesn't have.

Candice (10:06.605)

Yeah.

Jen (10:29.93)

doesn't have tech, it doesn't work, it doesn't have bones. And so that's kind of the beautiful tension that you're always exploring is like, this has to be beautiful and substantive and interesting, but also it has to be backed up with like, does it work? Does it function? Does it convert? And so I love kind of playing in that playground of how do we make these things like subtly, you know, conversion powerhouses, but also really beautiful to experience.

Candice (10:54.029)

Yeah. All right. So I want to start off with some design trends and hear from you if they're hit or shit. All right. So I have a list. I'm going to run through. We're going to run through them, get your take, and maybe we'll linger on a few that you think we should talk about more as to either why they're a hit or why they're a shit. Okay. First one, minimalist monochromatic designs, hit or shit.

Jen (11:02.144)

Okay.

Jen (11:12.021)

Okay.

Jen (11:18.422)

Still a hit. It's never going away, right? So I think it's going to change. think people are going to see minimalism in different ways where it's like, maybe it's neon green and black, like, you know, the Kamala, Brat, like all of that this summer, that's still minimal, right? So that's never going away. I think it's going to be timeless. There's a reason why newspapers have been black and white for the world over. You know, there's a reason why fashion magazines are never going to deviate from that trend. How it's interpreted is what's going to change. So the scale of minimalism is going to get bigger.

the fonts are going to get more interesting. And I think that's the power is like, if you're going to have something minimal, every single choice you make matters. And so yeah, go minimal, but think through how am I going to make it stand out from a sea of other neutral beige offerings out on the internet? That's still going to be the consideration, but it's not going anywhere.

Candice (12:05.582)

Okay, good. Well, I love minimalism, especially when it's done right. It's done so right. So that makes me happy. Yeah. I feel like Gen Z loves minimalism in a lot of ways, also maximalism. But when you look at some of Gen Z's fashion choices or some things that they're doing with their home, it's very uncluttered, very minimal, very clean lined. Yeah. What about oversized bold typography? Hit or shit?

Jen (12:10.538)

Right. It's, so pleasing. I mean, you look at my office, like I'm never, I'm never, I'm never changing.

Jen (12:26.304)

It is.

Jen (12:32.726)

Yeah, I know we're coming to shits. Don't worry. I'm not going to say all of them. I'm not an easy person. Yeah, no, always a hit. In fact, we're seeing just bigger all the time. I think that's really what's, it's becoming a design element in and of itself is just really big, great type and then less of it. And I think that's the interesting part is you're seeing less type, less text on a lot of websites, but bigger, bolder, more memorable.

Candice (12:56.627)

Mm, I love a bold typography. And I love when typography is the design element. There's something so sexy about that.

Jen (12:58.751)

Yeah.

Absolutely. It's my favorite. We're seeing a lot of bubble letters, just anecdotally. A lot of bubble letters and interesting font choices. And I think we're going to get to this in a second. But I think it's part of that hyper-personalization movement. And so we'll get there. But I'm seeing a lot of bubble letters and really interesting typographic choices, not just the random, clean, sans-serif minimalism.

Candice (13:25.3)

Yeah. What about scripty fonts everywhere? Is that in or out?

Jen (13:30.632)

I'm going to say it's out. I'm going to say it's shit. I love a scripty font. I think we're seeing them used in some interesting ways as like little accents here throughout, but I don't know that I'm predicting like a huge rise of the script. think like, you know, mid-2000s, early aughts, we saw a lot of that of like every wedding professional had like their own signature script. And if someone stole your script, you were super pissed.

Candice (13:49.27)

yeah. Super pissed.

Jen (13:55.83)

Yeah, I think in general people are realizing that dates your website and that dates your brand so quickly. It was like, you're using that script. Everyone else is using that. So I think we're going to see some other things typographically, but I don't see the rise of the the script.

Candice (14:08.8)

Yeah, I remember back in the day, the brush script font was the font to have like girl you needed to have a brush script font on your website. I had everyone you could buy at Creative Market like I had hard decisions to make as to which one I would choose. It was a big they were so so big.

Jen (14:18.678)

We did.

Jen (14:27.562)

They were huge. They were huge. And then people were like, people can't read this. my solution is I'll just space the letters out. And then I just had like a silent scream because I'm just seeing all of these like spread out script fonts, which is what I see in my nightmares. It was a hard time. It was a difficult time. We got through it together.

Candice (14:33.902)

you

I

Candice (14:41.55)

I know. That's your, yeah, we did. We did. A lot of times on the podcast, I'll bring up like outdated branding and I'll reference back to the deer heads of the 2008s. You know, everybody deer head in their logo, watermarked deer head.

Jen (14:57.312)

forgot about the deer heads. my gosh, I forgot about the deer heads. That was what a time. I just love that people were like, you know what taxidermy like what, what has always embodied my brand is dead animals. Like, you know, yeah, it's earthy. Yeah. Yeah. I wish, I wish that trend had like taken a real life form and people were just putting like full on like photos of taxidermy deer on their website.

Candice (15:05.112)

Yeah.

Candice (15:09.062)

Yeah, for my wedding planning business, why not? Like, it just makes sense. I mean, I had to fight myself. It's earthy. It's, it is, Yeah.

Candice (15:22.222)

you

Yeah, that might actually who knows that could be on the hit list later. Yeah, it is coming. I just as a side note, I had to fight myself from changing the logo of my luxury wedding planning business to a deer head. Because the choke hold that it had on us in 2009, 2009 was just it was it was really difficult to step away from you really it was hard.

Jen (15:29.334)

That's brutalism. It's coming. It's coming.

Jen (15:47.702)

Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. Also, there was like a big, do you remember like the olive branch, like the olive trans? And I'm like, you have never been to Italy. Like you have been to Olive Garden within the past month. Like you are not allowed to have an olive branch in your logo. I realize you're signifying that you too are a destination wedding photographer available to travel. There are other ways. Like just say that, you know, doesn't have to be an olive branch.

Candice (15:53.378)

Yes.

Candice (15:56.972)

No.

Candice (16:09.526)

Yes. So unless your business is Olive Branch, then sure, that makes a lot of sense.

Jen (16:17.32)

Yeah, yeah. Also monograms. And some people, was like, your name, I'm so sorry, but your name is not meant to be monogrammed. You know, like this is, this is extremely difficult. It's a Z, a P and a Q. Like this is never going to happen. And we just need to accept that together.

Candice (16:27.086)

Yeah. Yeah. No, we do. One of my sad facts is I feel like my name is not monogrammable. Two C's together just doesn't work. it doesn't... Yeah, well, yeah.

Jen (16:40.424)

I mean, Chanel, right? Like, I...

Candice (16:44.302)

But I feel like all the good monograms have been taken. Celine, Chanel, and then I don't know what else to do. So I've always kind of mourned the fact that I'll never have a cool monogram, but monograms aren't, it's like, feel like it's the design default for a lot of people, but it's not always. So I'll throw this out monograms in 2025 hit or shit.

Jen (16:48.265)

Yes.

Jen (16:59.337)

It is. Yes.

Jen (17:06.207)

say shit. I say shit. I just say that I think there are other ways to be iconic than to just default two, three letters, right? And to me, it just seems like a cop out of like, I couldn't think of anything else. So I just bought a monogram kit off of creative market for going with it. You know, I don't think it has personality. I don't have, I think it has soul. Now there are exceptions to this. My good friend Angela from Saffron Avenue is like the monogram genius. And I feel like she can monogram anything, but she does a really good job making them bespoke. think she draws each one.

So, you know, if you're Angela, great. If you're the rest of us, I would avoid, I would avoid.

Candice (17:39.104)

Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree. And I also want to say just a little disclaimer, Jen and I are just having fun here. So if you have a monogram in your brand, and you love it, and you're like a southern woman and ram is like on your towels in your pillowcases. That is actually perfectly Yes, that is on brand for you. All this is meant to be fun. We don't want that. Yes.

Jen (17:45.338)

yeah.

Jen (17:52.583)

Live into that.

Yes, it is. We're jealous. We wish we could be monogram people and yet we are not. Yeah.

Candice (18:01.6)

I know. We're not. All right. What about sliders and carousels on the home page, like above the fold? So like right when you log into someone's home page, a slider or carousel.

Jen (18:12.49)

There was a time, Candice, where I feel like everyone had like three photos in a carousel as their header. I feel like we are no longer living in that time. I think we are all ready to move forward. We are able to embrace new things. So I think there are different ways to do this. I think that there are ways of having like more than one image loading in. I think there are ways of making multiple images load in and like an interesting, you know, Pinterest style way. I think that you can have an automatic slider of images loading in.

I think if you're going to do it, you have to be careful to do it in a new way. Cause I do think it's one of the things that can easily make your website look dated. If you have a triptych of images, like one, two, three images in a line, or if you just have a slider, I do think it can, it can read like, yes, you know, this template came from 2011 and I've not updated it. So an easy win is just replace it with a single image or a multiple image section that like loads in new images, one after another one. Right? So you get one at a time. I think that's a great way of doing it.

Candice (19:06.637)

Yeah.

Jen (19:09.59)

loading in multiple sliders, but I would suggest getting rid of just the automatic slider. I don't think it's doing what we want it to do.

Candice (19:17.216)

No, and it's also expected. And when you're trying to create a website that stands out amongst your competition in a saturated market, you need to do something unexpected, but not so unexpected that people are like, like, why is there is, yeah, why is there a stripper pole on this? This is so yeah, we want to grab their attention, but not in a way that makes them feel like they're in the wrong place.

Jen (19:27.221)

Yes.

What the hell is happening here? You have my attention. Yeah. Yeah.

Jen (19:41.546)

Yeah, I do feel like I'm seeing the rise of the what the hell is happening here website. I have concerns, but there are so many websites that I've landed on kind of in like the creative director art agency world where I'm like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to click. I am not cool enough to be here. You know, that is the feeling that I have instantly is like, I feel like I've entered into party that has been happening for a while and I have no idea what to do or who I am. So if you are creating,

absolutely no interest in your viewer, that is a problem. If you're creating an absolute cluelessness in your user, that is also a problem. And so there need to be visual cues. If you're going to do something really cool and different, you still need to have like a menu, right? Where people know like home, about, this is calming. I have agency, I know what to do. So you're allowed to do new cool things, but you still need to do that within the framework of expectation of like, this still feels like a website. I still know what action to take. And so

Candice (20:35.213)

Yeah.

Candice (20:38.989)

Yeah.

Jen (20:39.136)

That's always a good question I ask is like, does someone land on your website and know what action to take first? Right? Are you leading them through a journey? Do they feel like they're being guided in a certain way or are they just landing? They're going like, what the hell do I do now? Like I am in Kmart and this is overwhelming.

Candice (20:52.8)

Yeah. This is where does good design meets great functionality is it's like there's unexpected, but it's still user friendly. It still operates the way you would expect it to. What about gradients and neon color palettes in or out?

Jen (21:00.587)

Yes.

Jen (21:10.568)

We're still seeing a lot of neon. I mean, I think it's probably on its way and I think it's going to have to be doing something differently. But I especially think in a lot of neutral websites where there isn't a lot of other color, we're seeing a lot of really cool, especially like a really light neon yellow. We're seeing those pops that just add some personality that make it feel a little bit more modern, a little bit more current. So I'm still seeing that continue. I'm going to guess that we're going to see it start to phase out, but for right now, still a hit.

Candice (21:36.642)

Yeah, and what about gradients? Do you think gradients are in right now?

Jen (21:40.008)

I think I am not a gradient girl. I'm going to be honest. I don't, that's not where I like to live. I'm just like pick color, any color, you know, like let's just go with one. I did on Jenna Kutcher's new website, I did an animated gradient. That was really fun. And so if you go to her website, you can see the gradient is actually moving. And it was just a great way to create a little bit like of youthfulness, of energy. And so if you want to create a brand that feels very youthful or that has that kind of like Bohemian style vibe, I think it's probably for you.

Candice (21:47.072)

Yes.

Jen (22:09.056)

For the rest of us, I'm gonna say no, like just be strong. Just make it blue if you want it blue. You don't have to choose three different blues. Just go with it. Just go with it. Be strong. Be bold. Yeah, be bold. Pick a hex code.

Candice (22:15.522)

Just go with it. love that. Yes. Be strong in your choice. Love it. 3D elements and immersive visuals. What do you think of those? Yeah.

Jen (22:26.902)

Absolutely. Definitely, definitely here for it. think that, you know, one of the biggest questions that people are craving in 2025, 2024 is just an experience, whether it's online or whether it's in person. We were sitting at home for a long time during COVID. And so we're like, give me something to do. Give me somewhere to be. so websites that create that other world that we were talking about earlier that feel immersive, where you are like sucked into your computer and you're like, what is this?

Candice (22:50.678)

Yeah.

Jen (22:56.48)

How do I live in here? A lot of that is just scale. And so if you want to make your website more immersive, that's a quick and easy hack for you is just go in and make your headings bigger. Make your images bigger. Make it where they have to scroll. And they can't see the entire image and the entire part of your website at one time. That's what creates that feeling of immersiveness because you have to keep scrolling. You can't see it all at once. And so it's kind of like when you have this amazing view of the sky and you have to turn around to really take it all in.

You're not able to see the entire sky in just one tiny little section. So similarly with your website, you want to draw people in, you want to give them something to explore. And so that's where that scale makes all the difference. Yeah.

Candice (23:35.138)

I love that. Recently, I was on my favorite website, which is J.Crew. And I had this really amazing immersive experience where they brought back the old school J.Crew catalog, which if you're as old as me, my god. I used to live for the J.Crew catalog. And so they brought back the old school J.Crew catalog. And they even styled the shoot and photographed it in a way that felt like really 90s. The color grading was so on point. Actually, the Fitzgerald template reminded me quite a bit of that catalog.

Jen (23:39.252)

Yeah.

Jen (23:45.653)

I love it.

Jen (23:50.293)

Yes!

Jen (24:03.872)

Hold it for inspiration.

Candice (24:05.024)

Yeah, I mean, it's so good. And in order to view the catalog, you went on J.Crew's website and it was an immersive experience like you were immersed in going to the newsstand to pick up the catalog. It was really cool and very different and instantly captured my attention. And you felt like you were discovering something special.

Jen (24:25.162)

Yes, absolutely. see, those are the things like Candace, like that's what you pay attention to. The experiences that you have as a consumer that you love are the kind of experiences that you want to create as a brand. so chances are, if it resonates with you to that degree, it's going to resonate with your customers to that degree too, right? So anytime I have that experience, I send it to my team, I send it to myself and say like, I want something that feels like this. And so

Candice (24:37.283)

Yeah.

Jen (24:52.026)

Usually the question isn't, want something that looks like this. It's, want something that feels like this. And so that is such a different way to approach inspiration because you don't need to go and rebuild J.Crew catalog, but you could say, okay, I want my galleries to feel like the J.Crew catalog, or I want my services page to have that immersive feel. And so maybe I have like an explore the services and then that's a full screen section. That's primarily images or that's a light box design. So

pay attention to like when you have those experiences as a consumer because that's exactly what you want to create. Yeah.

Candice (25:26.194)

yeah, for sure. Okay. We've mentioned brutalism so far, but we haven't dug into this. So my next is brutalism inspired layouts, hit or shit.

Jen (25:36.444)

hit. Yeah. So people are really leaning into this. I fired my graphic designer or like, you know, my designers taking the week off. Here's what I have instead. I think again, it really appeals to our desire for, for people, right? I've like, this is something that I know someone made cause it isn't perfect. So in this world of like AI generated everything where everyone's skin is flawless, whatever design is flawless, where everyone is able to create really high-end elevated work. There's something that instantly stands out.

about something that isn't idealized, that isn't perfect and shiny and flawless and polished. And so I think we're not going to see this headed out anytime soon, because it feels very rock and roll. It feels like I have the courage to stand here and be ugly. And so it's the very unfiltered approach to design. So if you have a brand that's a little irreverent, or you want to create something that's against the grain, so if you look at Kamala Harris choosing that as her campaign iconography, there was a reason of, hey,

Candice (26:17.574)

I'm

Jen (26:34.654)

I want to be against the establishment. I want to perceive you as like, I am not that. So if you're looking to like establish more of that kind of brand, think brutalism is like a really interesting thing to play with. And so a few good ways of playing with it, if you're like a wedding professional and you don't want like to actually be ugly is like do like a layered gallery where like all the images are just like layered on top of each other, something that doesn't feel perfect and polished and feels like someone just like dumped images together and said like, here they all are or

Try some fonts that don't feel like they should go together, because it feels like, someone picked these for a reason. This is really interesting. So I think it gives you that against the grain, renegade vibe that people can really accord

Candice (27:13.238)

Yeah. Is there anything in tonics site, a template shop that has a bit of brutalism and inspiration in it that we can look to?

Jen (27:21.3)

Yeah, our newest Valencia template, our newest Valencia template is definitely something where we've played with a lot of like bold, colorful. It's not perfect. There's some like images that don't feel like, they're super, super cohesive. That's the one that I would say if you're interested in kind of that brutalism and if you want to play with something that feels more bold and instantly kind of has that iconic vibe, I had some fun with some brutalism techniques and those like big typographic, really immersive movement in Valencia.

Candice (27:33.261)

Yeah.

Candice (27:46.922)

Yeah. Yeah. Which is like all the hit stuff that we've been talking about today. All right, we're going to move on to functionality trends, which also play into design. So it was hard for me to put these in the functionality category because I'm like, they're also design, but we need some functionality things to talk about. So functionality trends, the first scroll triggering animations, like parallax scrolling, things like that.

Jen (27:54.57)

Yes.

Jen (28:11.85)

Well, first I need to get this off my chest. I am good at scrolling. Like that's something that I can do as a human. I'm pretty good. I've done this like since I was nine. And so all the websites that kind of take your scrolling power out of your control and only load elements when they think they should drives me insane. That's like my biggest pet peeve as a designer. And so I think in general, when it comes to parallax and scrolling and these micro animations and things like that, you have to keep in mind that it's very much a Coco Chanel moment of like,

you need to take one thing off, right? You cannot wear all the accessories. you're, it's giving the like, you know, the teenage daughter raiding her mom's jewelry cabinet and just wearing everything all at once. so I think that's something I would just be wary of, of like, just because it can move doesn't mean it should. Just because it can be parallax doesn't mean it should. And so really it should be keeping someone's interest as they're moving through your website. And so just adding a little bit of animation here and there, adding a little bit of parallax.

Candice (28:42.136)

Right.

Candice (28:50.474)

Yeah.

Candice (28:57.538)

Mmm.

Candice (29:04.042)

Mm-hmm.

Jen (29:10.282)

But you don't want people to feel like they're in a house of mirrors where they're like not even sure, you know, the floor is moving, am I moving? You don't want that to be the case of like where someone kind of feels a little unsettled as they're browsing your brand, not knowing what's going to move next and like a little bit in fear of their next click. That's not the vibe.

Candice (29:27.574)

Yeah, that's actually such a great analogy because it is like being in a fun house when you just feel like you have no control over where you're going. And you know what happens when people feel like that? They leave. They're like, bye. Yeah, I can't make sense of this website. I'll find somebody else.

Jen (29:32.854)

You're like.

Jen (29:37.952)

They leave. Exactly.

Jen (29:43.324)

Right, like this is too confusing for me or like this is just not my vibe, you know, of like I don't know what's happening. I, you know, this is concerning. I'm like, I didn't drink enough coffee for this. Like I'm out. Yeah. Yeah.

Candice (29:53.601)

I'm out, yes. Okay, one page websites with anchor navigation that are not sales pages. So we're not talking about a sales page, we're talking about just a one page website with anchor navigation to click through and skip down.

Jen (30:06.836)

Yeah, I think shit. I think shit in general. Now, I'm going to qualify that if you are just starting out and you're like, Jen, I do not have enough content to fill up a giant template. No problem. Get anything that you can get up so that you can iterate. Right? Do not be paralyzed by waiting to get a perfect website up to get a website up. Really start with something. Everyone has to start with a crappy website. You know, like

You just have to, you have to get that out. I'm just kidding. You actually don't, which is the great thing about 2024 where we are, you can start with a beautiful website instantly. So there are lots of options for you. You can do that. But I would say in general, when people reach the bottom of a one page website, the overwhelming response is, is that all? Is that all there is? Like, where do I go next? And so that's where I think it's really powerful to have a number of pages where people can explore. Even if they're short pages.

Candice (30:49.74)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jen (30:59.228)

I say like start, you know, on our website, we have like our Negroni template and our sidecar template that are a little bit smaller, or you can always grab a tonic template and you don't have to launch every page or even every section of every page. We're just giving you options. So I genuinely prefer a multi-page website because it gives people more to explore and it keeps them from feeling that feeling of like, I guess it's, I guess it's over. Like it was, it was a short film, not a feature film. Good to know.

Candice (31:23.84)

Yep. No, but that's so true. And then I think that kind of establishes a bit of mistrust or people are kind of like, well, I would have expected a photographer to have more pages or an invitation designer to have more pages because they're judging your website against other ones that they visited. So there's that expectation. Yeah.

Jen (31:41.248)

Haven't they been around for a while? Like, wow, they don't have the much content. I wonder, did they have that not enough work to fill up a full website? I do think that there can be this expectation of there should be more. So even if you're doing it as a cool style choice, I generally think it's better to err on the side of fewer shorter pages over just one page.

Candice (31:47.266)

Bye.

Candice (32:00.096)

I agree, yes. What about desktop design over mobile design? And let me just preface this with, recently I was on a website for someone and it said, this is best viewed on your desktop. And I thought, you have got to be kidding me. No.

Jen (32:16.574)

Yeah. In the year of our Lord 2024? no. Yeah, no, absolutely. If you are under the delusion that people are going to pick up their computer and be like, now I will go. I've had tabs open to my phone for years that I've meant to go open on my desktop. You know, this is never going to happen. Nor do people like to be told you're not going to have a great experience here. Get me on a better day. Like, you know, inquire on a Wednesday for your best response. That is not how people function. So

Candice (32:31.0)

See you.

Candice (32:40.003)

Yes.

Jen (32:45.232)

Yeah, let's all just realize like this is not a my mobile that gets to have a bad experience kind of world that we're living in. Really, your mobile needs to be just as good, if not better than your desktop experience. And so that's one of the reasons I love Showit and I love our templates because we spend just as much time on our mobile sites realizing that everyone else is spending just as much time on your mobile site. So why would it be an afterthought for either of us? And you need to be able to control that mobile site.

just as much as you can on your website. And in fact, create a great experience. so, you know, using Show It, you can like hide different sections. You can make different sections, totally different designs on mobile. I think it really gives you that power that you need to be like, okay, you're on mobile. I get it. We all get it. Like make sure that that's a killer experience too.

Candice (33:29.11)

Yeah. How can I knock your socks off so much that you actually want to pull up your computer and immerse yourself even more into my website, which you might not do, but yeah.

Jen (33:35.926)

That's what we hear all the time. People are like, I pulled it up on mobile and then I had to go to my desktop because I just wanted to see it on a full screen. That's what we're looking for. That's what we're looking for. Yeah.

Candice (33:41.313)

Yes.

Candice (33:45.1)

Yes, yes, I love it. AI driven chat bots for customer support, yes or no?

Jen (33:53.138)

Absolutely not. It's a hard no for me, Candace. It's an absolute no. No, I say this like there are a few. There are a few good companies who've done this well. It's usually when you're searching help docs. And so it'll be like, here's an AI bot to help you find what you're looking for. However, do you want your person's first experience with you to be an AI bot? Probably not, especially if you're in any sort of high end market.

Candice (33:55.028)

Yeah.

Jen (34:19.509)

Now, if you're search serving like a lower budget client who's just trying to get information and get out, sure, that's fine. Like let the robot do that work. But just in general, that is not the best use of AI for most creative and entrepreneurial brands. Use AI on the back end of your business to help with your systems. Use it to help you be creative, but don't use it in place of you for anything customer facing. That's my general.

Candice (34:43.191)

love that advice. Drop down navigations, yes or no? And even like multiple drop downs. Like back in the day when I was designing my own website, then I had my blog. I've been doing this a long time. I used to have a blog and my own personal website. My drop downs had drop downs. we were dropping down everywhere. There were so many drop downs. What do you say about this now? Yes or no?

Jen (34:53.609)

man.

Jen (35:01.846)

It's like, it's still going. I'm a no. It's a no. It's a strong no. We have a mega drop down. We have one mega menu on our Tonic website. And this is something we build into a lot of our websites now where it's like one menu that allows you to have more choices. However, in general, I think it's like the Cheesecake Factory menu. When you give people a lot of options at any point,

They're just overwhelmed and they assume that all the options are probably mediocre, right? The more options you have, the more decisions you're asking someone to make on the front end, the more likely they are to just be like, forget it. I don't, I don't even know. I'm just leaving it here. So unless you're really providing someone a way to differentiate between your offers in a key way where like, okay, people need to be able to choose weddings or portraits wide away. I think generally just put them in the menu, you know, just give people one big click instead of giving them drop downs on drop downs on drop downs.

Candice (35:33.891)

Yeah.

Jen (35:59.976)

In e-commerce, people do often have a big mega menu that says, if you're looking for women's pants, we're going to make that really easy for you to click so you don't have to click pants and then sort. And so that's where I think it can be really helpful if you're allowing people to just see the information that they want right away. But I vote for like a mega menu over a dropdown all day. All day.

Candice (36:17.774)

all day. Let's talk about content. what about, this is a big one, and I think a lot of people are leaning into this or will be in 2025 if they're not already, which is AI generated website copy. As a designer and as a writer, because you do write this wacky long email every week, I think you're an amazing writer. What do you think about people using AI generated website copy? Yes or no?

Jen (36:45.706)

The number one reason we hear people have not launched their website is because they were hung up on copy, right? So this is something that I've developed a great deal of empathy for because I know it's the thing that keeps so many people from bringing their ideas to life. It's the thing standing between them and hitting publish. And so I 100 % believe in using the tools that we have as artists to be able to allow us to present our work better in the world. And so

I think AI is a tool, like a paintbrush, right? AI is not an artist. You are the F-ing artist. AI is the tool in your hand. And so if it makes it easier for you to create art, to use AI to get it out, absolutely do it. And so the way I use AI for copy all the time is I use it to frame out things. I'll say like, what is the person that I'm struggling, that I'm writing for struggling with? How do I represent that in the copy? What are some of the key points?

And then I write based on that framework or that structure. Or I'll write something and have AI reword it or check it for it to make sure that it's accomplishing the objectives that I have. Do I let AI write my copy from scratch and just leave it? Never. That's never going to be something that I do. And I think people are beginning to just crave real human voices. And so that's something I preach all the time is in a world of AI driven everything.

Candice (38:02.615)

Yeah.

Jen (38:07.868)

you and your voice are something that cannot be replicated. No one can choose and say, like, I just want it to sound like this and they're going to have it instantly. Your humor, your voice, your word choices, those are the things that AI can't do. So the more you represent that in your copy, the more you write like you speak. And that's one of my top tips is just like read all of your copy out loud and make sure it sounds like you. I would not lean into AI to do it for you. I would let AI do it with you.

And that's a definite difference in my experience in the outcome. Yeah. Yeah.

Candice (38:38.498)

Yeah, that's a great, great tip. I also think that we as creatives have a great opportunity where a lot of people who may be relying on AI will sound the same. And then when we interject our own voice, use AI where we need to, but then also lean on our own voice and way of phrasing things, it's just going to make us stand out that much more.

Jen (39:00.82)

Absolutely. that's the biggest thing is like, that's great for you. Like if everyone else starts to sound and look the same and you're the one, our brains are literally wired to notice the thing that's different. And so anytime you get to be the black dot in a sea of white dots, guess what people are going to see? So lean into anything that allows you to showcase that unique voice, your unique vision, your unique capacities, your unique skills, your unique style. I'm going to bank on that side 10 out of 10 times.

Candice (39:17.122)

Yeah.

Candice (39:30.38)

Yeah, I fully agree. Okay, so my next question is for you to share with us. What do you think is going to be in 2025, like website brand? What do think is going to be like the next skinny Jean? Like the thing out of all the things we discussed, or maybe not anything that we've even mentioned yet. What do you think is going to be?

the 2025 skinny jean website, something that just like immediately tells people, you're a millennial or maybe your fashion sense is a few years behind. No offense to skinny jeans. I love them still, but I also like, got rid of all my skinny jeans. was like, I am not gonna be as skinny as you wear anymore. I'm going baggy jeans all the way. They're so much more comfortable and it makes me allegedly look younger.

Jen (40:08.128)

Good for you.

Jen (40:15.796)

I am, I'm following in your footsteps slightly. have like a kick at the end. Like I'm not, I'm no longer wearing the skinny jeans, but I am moving slowly in the direction. I've not fully embraced the baggy jeans quite yet. but in terms of websites, I'm a little bit better. I do feel like I understand what's current and what's trending there in terms of what's, what's, what's keeping, what's dating your website. A couple of things. Number one, it being really, really small. So much like

our ankles have been free, it is time to free your website, right? It is time to let it to embrace and take up more space. so anything that feels super small, if you looked at websites, especially in the wedding industry a few years ago, tiny fonts, right? There was nothing sleeker than people having to lean into their laptops to read what you were saying. Like that just created the experience that you're looking for apparently.

Candice (41:05.358)

you

Jen (41:05.736)

No, no, no. We're like, we're going with scale. We're going with readability. We're going with accessibility. This is a brave new world where like fonts are allowed to be bigger than 12 picks. So I would say like baseline, your body font needs to be 15 picks. Like that's, that's what I'm just going to say right now. 15 point fonts and above no more tiny, tiny websites, tiny, tiny website fonts, tiny, tiny images, nothing super small. So that's the biggest thing that I think is going to set people apart. The second one is just it being static, right?

Candice (41:10.072)

Yes.

Candice (41:13.996)

Yes.

Jen (41:34.548)

That was the norm in the past couple of years is you would just scroll a website and the website just sits there while you scroll it. It is a passive inhabitant of the online space. And we're looking for websites to be active, right? We want them to have personality. We want them to move. We want them to respond to us. And so that responsiveness is no longer just browser like this. It's also, they moving? Are they inviting further action? Does something happen when I mouse over and click? so gone are the days when your website just got to sit there like a coffee table book.

Now it needs to be immersive. really needs to invite people into the process. those are things I look at. Also, if I see an antler anywhere, then I know.

Candice (42:12.736)

And notice, just say no to antlers. Antlers are not it for 2025.

Jen (42:16.296)

No, if you take nothing else away from this podcast, it's like the it's down with antlers. Yeah. No, deer heads. Just say no.

Candice (42:22.063)

Yeah, no deer heads, please. No. It's funny though, because maybe in 2026 we'll be reversing this conversation and suddenly just like baggy jeans came back into style and skinny jeans are out. Maybe deer heads will come back.

Jen (42:36.566)

Don't even say that, Candice. just, that just the strike of fear that just hit me in my heart. Don't put that out into the world. It's for you. Yeah. Coming April Fools 2025. And I'm like, welcome to Deerhead.

Candice (42:44.609)

When I see a tonic template with a deer head in it, we're going to have to have a conversation.

Candice (42:53.623)

I love it. From what I'm from what you've shared with us today, this has been so much fun, Jen, honestly, getting to pick your brain on this and talk to you about design and functionality and what you think is working and not working has been so much fun. But one thing that keeps coming up in our conversation is this immersive experience and welcoming people into your world kind of like creating a Westworld style experience where like everything is super immersive and they're like invited into this incredible

dinner party of your business, learning all about you and how that is the biggest trend for 2025 and something that we should be looking to make our websites reflect, right?

Jen (43:32.948)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think your website is a great example of this, you know, and if I can just like plug you for a second, cause you did, you know, star student vibes. you did such a great job with this. You you took our Fitzgerald template, but you would never know, you know, unless you're scrolling them side by side, you made it your own and you added so much personality. And so one of my favorite parts of your listening to this on Candace's website, pull it up. It looks really sexy on your phone and your desktop device, by the way.

Candice (43:38.03)

Woo!

Candice (43:47.683)

Yeah.

Jen (43:57.506)

but you can pull it up and there are just moments where you just feel who Candice is. And so it has neon moments. It has her personality. It has these cool, like sticky notes that have handwriting on them and it's tactile, right? There's something where you just respond to it on a personal level because it feels like who Candice is. And so the, the hard part is that I know for a lot of people, that's the hardest thing to create from scratch is like,

cool, Jen. I just need to create like a whole world in my spare time after my full time job. And so that's where I would just say like, the great news is that this is what we do all day long. Like this is what I am clearly the world's biggest nerd about is like, you know, I'm like in Westworld and my own making all the time, not terrifying at all. And so, you know, that's where I would just say like, you're allowed to skip a step, you know, and just like you, you know, you easily could probably design your own website from scratch.

Candice (44:27.395)

Right.

Candice (44:37.93)

No.

Jen (44:49.398)

but you didn't have to. And so even for our customers, a lot of times they'll grab a new template and they'll just add portions of that new template to their show website and build it out a little bit or take what we've done and just do part of it or customize it a little bit for their brand. But that's where you're allowed to use the tools that we have in 2024 to build an online presence that really feels like you and you have the tools to do that. 10 years ago, you did it. And it was just like,

Give a designer your firstborn child, your social security number, and the blood of your firstborn, and then they'll build you a website. That was it. But now you have options. And so I think that's one of the things I would just encourage you is you have options. You don't have to learn all of this by yourself. You're allowed to skip a step. There are templates. There are great designers out there. So build that experience, but use the tools you have available.

Candice (45:32.173)

No.

Candice (45:39.012)

I agree. And that's why I bought a tonic site template. also just so we're clear, I have like five, maybe more. I probably have close to 10 tonic templates just chilling in my show it account in my library. And because I love websites and I love everything that Jen and Jeff do design wise, it's so inspiring. And I just, I'm a nerd for it. I love it. gets me so inspired.

I buy them and then I mix and match things like a good outfit. You know, you go into your closet, you pull something out and you put it together with something else. You mix high, you mix low, you mix a template here, a template there. And then it really does create a custom experience. you know, Jen and Jeff have, they've studied this. I mean, and they've also spent like most of their life studying design and understanding trends and understanding how things should function, knowing the platform. They've done all the hard work for you.

So you might as well just lean on the experts and let them give you a big head start with a website template.

Jen (46:30.229)

Yeah.

Jen (46:37.002)

Yeah, let me nerd out on your behalf. That's all I ask, you know?

Candice (46:38.892)

Yeah. I love it. Well, you guys are running an amazing sale. so Black Friday is always whenever my students like I think I want to do my redo my website on like wait till Black Friday because Tonic has its biggest template sale of the year. This is where you get to save the most on a new website template. So wait, and it's also the perfect time for you to implement some of these changes because we're at the end of the year. It's your downtime for many wedding pros. This is where you actually get to like do all the shit you said you were going to do.

Jen (46:51.029)

Yes.

Jen (47:01.76)

Yeah.

Jen (47:07.572)

Yeah

Candice (47:07.65)

This is is now the time has arrived and you can get incredible savings on the templates inside Tonics sale this week.

Jen (47:16.616)

Yeah, this is definitely people are always like, is this really your best sale of the year? And this, this is the biggest sale of the year. And the cool thing we're doing this time around is really, we're just trying to reward people for like waiting because we know you wait for Black Friday. We know we understand we do. So why not reward you? And so we're not only offering just like our base level discount, but it's one of those things where like the more you spend, the more that you say, which I personally am very incentivized by. I love like, perfect. I'm like getting more when I do this. So if you buy

Candice (47:22.135)

is.

Jen (47:45.086)

a website and a sales page and some Tampa templates, you're going to end up saving 30 % off. Like really, it's an insane deal. And we have payment plans on all of our templates. And so if you're not sure what to buy that I would just say, that's usually the biggest question we get. And just feel free to like email me and my team and say like, Hey, I need some help picking. actually have a site stylist that's happy to help you just pick out your template, help pair you with a template. We would love to help with that. But yeah, this is absolutely our biggest sale.

Candice (47:59.555)

Yeah.

Jen (48:13.578)

And then we also have two secret templates that we're releasing and that you'll get access to any time that you purchase anything. So you'll only be able to see those if you're either on our wait list or if you purchase anything, you'll get to unlock those. So those are just like a few of the fun things we have going on during the Black Friday sale.

Candice (48:32.264)

my God, love a secret. We love secret templates. We love secret templates. Now, you know, I need the secret templates too. Like I have.

Jen (48:34.676)

I love a secret. I love a secret. I can tell I saw this light come on in your eyes of like new things. yeah. Add it to your library, to your tonic closet.

Candice (48:46.388)

So, good

have a closet filled with tonic templates proudly though, embarrassingly and proudly. When I redid my website, I created a reel about the process and I said that I stalk you guys and that's not, it's not a lie. It's totally true.

Jen (48:52.96)

Yes.

Jen (49:03.07)

wasn't even a little offended. Honestly, I was so thrilled. The internet is one of the weird places where you can say things like, I've been following you for five years and that's not horrifying. know, no police were called. I'm only complimented. I am grateful. This is a circle of trust. Let's save space.

Candice (49:04.917)

Yeah.

Candice (49:11.48)

Yeah.

Candice (49:16.622)

Yeah. I love it. All Well, I will put all of the information about the Tonic sale in the show notes. And I'm also pulling together some of my favorite templates. If you go to CandaceCoppola.com slash Tonic, I've listed out some of my favorite templates that I think were great for wedding pros that are on sale. And what I will say is so genius is that Tonic knows that you don't just need a website, but you also need some Instagram templates.

You might need templates for some other things in your business. If you're listening and you are in education, maybe you need some lead magnet templates or PS, if you listen to our launch your list series and you're like, I want to launch a lead magnet. Tonic has an amazing lead magnet Canva template. I literally have that. have their slide deck template. Like girl, I got everything. But what Tonic realizes is that you also need some other things around your business to make your marketing shine and for things to feel cohesive.

So they have these templates on sale too. And I will link to them the ones that I think would be great for your business. So go to kandiscopla.com slash tonic. I have it all there for you. Add it to your cart, girl. What's in your cart for Black Friday this year? Like what's one thing that you're, like your Elmo, like what's the one thing that you're like willing to shoulder check somebody so that you can purchase?

Jen (50:32.918)

I pine over purchases that I like a wait all year to make. And I'm like, this is $17. Like why, why am I not doing this? So there are several things like I've been wanting merit, like the merit, the beauty brand, have like a, like a skincare set that I've like been eyeing all this time. Cause I'm at the age where all of a the skincare is no longer an option. It's like an imperative. So I'm like, okay, that, that I may finally be able to purchase and feel good about it. And then there's a crate and barrel like pedestal table.

Candice (50:33.838)

Ooh.

Candice (50:39.822)

Yes.

Jen (51:00.672)

that I think I've wanted for three years. And I literally woke up today and was like, I think this is the time. Like it is time. I can do this. I can buy this pedestal table and I will buy it on Black Friday. And we know that's how you do it with your website. So people who have been like, I've eyed this website for three years. I get you because I am you. No judgment whatsoever. But we are all doing this together. We are hitting add to cart and we are hitting confirm purchase. And I'm so proud of all of us.

Candice (51:25.634)

my God, me too. I love Black Friday. It's like my Superbowl.

Jen (51:28.63)

What do you buy? What's in your... I feel like you should teach me. You seem like a better shopper than me. I would love to know.

Candice (51:31.383)

Thanks

I am definitely a professional. My grandma Vera taught me very well how to shop and how to like, she was the expert shopper in the family. And so I get all my good shopping habits from her maybe not so good. I already bought my big Black Friday purchase, which I got a new couch, which we desperately needed. But I'm a piner too. And like I've been pining over this Seventh Avenue cloud couch for probably a year and a half.

Jen (51:38.218)

Okay.

Jen (51:45.494)

Ehh

Jen (51:53.066)

Okay.

Candice (51:58.734)

And they had a Labor Day sale. Thank you. And I said, you know what? They only give you 10%. They're not like Tonic giving you 30. They only give you 10. So I'm like, there's not going to be a better deal on Black Friday. I better get this baby here so I can be buying more stuff on my new couch on Black Friday. So.

Jen (51:59.668)

I'm so happy for you.

Jen (52:05.62)

Wow.

Jen (52:15.543)

Yes, you need a comfortable place to sit. And so that was an investment in your future and worthwhile. Yeah. Backing you up.

Candice (52:20.18)

It was thank you for that. Absolutely 1000 % Jen, thank you for being such a great co conspirator on today's episode. I had a lot of fun. I love your opinions. Love you love everything that you guys do. I'm your biggest fan. Yes, good. Thanks for being here today. Thank you so much.

Jen (52:28.214)

anytime.

Jen (52:33.108)

mutual gap. I will fashion, I will fashion police with you website version anytime. So just let me know. I'm phone call away. Let's go.

Candice (52:44.28)

I love it. Yes. Jen and I were talking before we hit record and I'm like, I want us to channel slightly channel Joan. Like I miss her rest in peace. We need Joan. We need a little bit of Joan energy in this. And I thought we brought it respectfully. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We did. She would be proud of us for sure. Watching over us with pride.

Jen (52:52.085)

Yes.

Just a little bit. Joan, Joan, Jen, you know, there's like a through line. I get it. Yeah. It's like, yeah. I think we, I think we did what we needed to do. I'm proud of us. I think we helped the people. Joan would be proud. Thank you, St. Joan. Yeah. She is.

Candice (53:11.818)

Yes, she is. right, friends. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I've linked all the details about Tonics Sale going on this week, Black Friday only. And I've also selected some templates that I think would be amazing for your business. I want to remind you there's so much power in your purpose and I'll see you next time.