Candice (00:00.226)

There are four mistakes you might be making with your website copy. And today's guest, Andrea Shaw is going to teach you how to fix them. Hey there, friend, real quick. I want to share with you how you can sign up for a free trial with HoneyBook. HoneyBook is everything you need to get business done. And it's trusted by over a hundred thousand independent businesses, just like yours.

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You're here to grow a business, but not just any kind of business. You want to grow a profitable business with purpose, a business where you wake up every single day driven to serve your customers and make a difference in your own life. I'm Candace Coppola, published author, business coach, and your guide to building a profitable business with purpose. Join me here every single week.

as we explore how to build and grow your business with purpose. Get ready to dig in and have meaningful conversations about the strategies and techniques that will help you build your dream business. This is the power in purpose.

Candice (02:11.338)

Hey there, friend. Welcome back to the Power and Purpose podcast. It's me, your host, Candice, and I have another guest on today's episode of the show. I am joined by Andrea Shaw. She is a copywriter for Wedding Pros, and we are talking about four mistakes that most wedding pros make with their website copy and how you can fix them. Hiring a copywriter, talking about website copy, your messaging, these are all topics that a lot of my students come to me.

with questions around or want support on. And so when Andrea and I got to getting to know one another and talking, I knew that I wanted to bring her on the show to chat with you about some of the biggest mistakes she sees as a copywriter and how you can fix these mistakes on your website. Now, if you don't know Andrea Shaw, she writes websites for wedding pros who want to be the last tab.

standing in a couple's browser. I actually live for that statement. So good. Her job is to nail down what makes you in your business unique and then transform that into words that make them say, that's it. This is who we're booking. In a previous life, she worked on the agency side where she learned almost everything she knows about brand voice, SEO user experience, and how to get clients to give feedback that you can actually do something with.

She interned at the State Department, worked in a Tex-Mex restaurant with a too-good-to-be-true slogan, and wished she could write for a living. Well, now she gets to love her dream, and she gets to write copy for all you crazy kids out there. I know that this is also a season where we're sprucing up your website, and you might be tweaking your copy. It's been an unusually slow year for most wedding pros, not all, but for most.

And so when things are slow, we tend to pick up projects like our website. We also tend to start making tweaks, wondering, is it me or is it them? What is it? And website and copy are usually one of those tweaks. So I know this episode is going to be super timely for you. You're going to love Andrea's advice and the mistakes she shares. I know you're at least making one, if not more. So enough rambling from me. Let's get into my interview with Andrea Shaw. Andrea, welcome to the show.

Candice (04:31.49)

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here today. Oh my gosh, I am really excited. We get to pick your brain about copy for the next 30-ish minutes and for you to share with us the four biggest mistakes that you see wedding pros making with their copy. Yeah, I'm so excited to go through. There's so much you can do with your copy to get more of the clients that you want and not the ones that you don't want. That's the secret of copy. And there's so much everyone can do with their own copy. So let's...

Let's dive in. I'm really excited. I would love to know before we get going, what inspired you to be a copywriter for Wedding Pros? Like what was, what brought you to be where you are right now serving this incredible niche? So I started out doing copywriting for a lot of course creators and educators, and I loved it. But I got kind of through a referral, a client who was an elopement photographer, it was about two years ago, and I still work with her to this day. And I fell in love because it was

creating something offline, creating this tangible experience, this memento. And also there's a lot of artistry involved. And that was it for me. It was just kind of like love at first sight. It was not something I intended to happen. But I think that wedding pros just, like I said, they're creating these live experiences. And I think sometimes as someone who spends all day in front of a screen, it's really joyful to learn about things that aren't online, the very offline sort of stuff. Yeah. Well, great story.

hearing your origin story of how you decided to get involved in this crazy world of weddings. And you're so great at what you do. I love that you serve our wedding pros because copywriting is one of those things that I see wedding pros struggle with and also over-complicate at the same time. So it's like, they're always searching for somebody to help them figure out how to take what's in their heart or what's in their head and put it into their website or put it into their marketing copy.

I want to dive right in to what you think are the four biggest mistakes that wedding pros are making with their website copy. Absolutely. The first one I'd say is we tend to think of... I always refer to in your wedding planner, so hopefully you'll get this reference. We tend to think that to be wedding professionals, we have to have this almost stiff formal personality. I think of Marian St. Clair, the wedding planner in Bride Wars played by...

Candice (06:56.834)

Candice Bergen, and she's very formal. And I think a lot of people adopt this personality that isn't reflective of who they are and how they show up on the wedding day. And your copy is one of the places where you can really showcase your personality. And on a wedding day, it depends on exactly what niche you fill within the wedding industry, but often on a wedding day and in the lead up to a wedding, you're really intimately involved with the couple or at least one half of the couple, and your personality needs to click. They need to be able to feel comfortable.

with you in order to make that hiring decision. Yeah, I would agree. Lack of personality, definitely being a big mistake I see. For some reason, everybody thinks you have to talk like some kind of corporate robot or you need to be super perfesh. I would go on someone's website. I always love seeing like premiere wedding planner. Who cares? What does that have to do with anything? Yeah, absolutely. Especially for planners and photographers, I will say especially those two, you are having so much one-on-one time with the couple.

And like the example I always give, and I think you can relate to this, is if you curse up a storm in person, don't be super uptight and state on your website and have no reflection of that because when you show up, they're going to be like, wait a second, this isn't who I thought it was working with. No, it's a catfish. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God, that's the perfect way to describe it. It's a catfish. I'm going to be stealing that from you. Yes. Yes, you're catfishing people. All right, so I agree, 100%.

personality or lack thereof of personality, what's the next big mistake we're making? So I see a ton of references to I, to me, to my on your website, rather than framing it as being about the client's experience. And a lot of times for wedding professionals, that shows up also as talking about your work rather than their experience. And at a certain price point, especially everyone does great work, different styles of great work, but great work. And people are looking.

to learn more about the experience they're gonna get and why you're the unique person to give them that experience. This is such a good one. I can't remember who told me this. Maybe it was a business coach in the past or I heard it on a podcast. This was so many years ago. But when I heard it, it completely flipped my approach to marketing and copy. And it was like, people don't care about you, they care about them.

Candice (09:10.082)

So, if you are making it all about you and how great you are, cool. We know you're trying to show that you're capable and they should hire you because you're great at what you do, but they don't really care about that. They care about their own needs first, right? It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs or something like that where we just care about our own selves and what we need and not necessarily who you are and how great you are. Yeah. And there's a reframe that can be really useful. It's from a book called Building a Story Brand.

They talk about seeing your client as the hero and yourself as the guide. And if you can make that reframe in your head, I think it makes the whole, I mean my thing a little bit clearer. Because you do have to talk about yourself or your business, but you are the guide. You are not the main character in this particular story. Yeah, main character energy is reserved for your clients. Yes, especially with weddings. Like if there's ever a moment for main character energy, it is that particular moment. So you really have to give that to them, shine the spotlight on that.

Oh my God. Thanks for teaching that to us today, Andrea. Okay. What's the next big mistake we're making? So I was just recently putting together something about psychology in the sales process. And I think we can kind of tie it back to that. One thing we do is we start to overestimate how much other people know about our field once we're experts in it. And so for wedding

Candice (10:32.258)

things that aren't necessarily relevant to them when you're displaying packages, when you're talking about what you do. For example, if you're a photographer, unless your client themselves are a photography nerd, they're probably not interested. And no, I don't mean that as a slight, like, you know, it's a wonderful thing, but they're probably not interested in the camera type you use, or your editing process bit by bit. Your clients wanna know that they're gonna look fabulous, and the gear that you use has nothing to do with it. So a lot of times,

we start to include too many details on our websites and in our investment guides that aren't relevant at that stage of the sales process. Oh my gosh, you're so right. That is such a big mistake that we all make. You think it's like a way for us to show our expertise or are we too in our own head about what we do that we aren't considering what it's like as a novice or somebody outside of.

the industry, like we're not considering how the information is being received and processed. That's exactly it. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect. And it basically means that the better you get at something, the more you forget that other people aren't as good as you. And the more you forget that they don't have the same specialized knowledge as you. So it's something to always take into account when you're creating copy or thinking about your marketing strategy, your social media content, all of it, that your clients, most of them

Not all of them, but most of them are planning a wedding for the first time. It might be the only time that they do it. Of course, they don't know all the details that you know, and you have to drip out that information steadily. There are things that have their place in a contract, but not on your website, for example. That's a good one. All right. What then is our last big mistake that wedding pros are making with their copy? I think one of the last big mistakes people are making is simply not taking SEO into account no matter what level of the business you are at.

I see sometimes a reluctance to consider SEO. You know, people are killing it on Instagram, they get their leads from planners, they do whatever. And all of that is wonderful, but you also wanna have your SEO in place because you never know when a source of leads, whether it's a social media platform, whether it's WeddingWire or the planners you work through, those sources of leads can dry up. Your website is always there. It's always doing work for you.

Candice (12:51.254)

And I think what often happens is that professionals look at, newer professionals look at the websites of established professionals. And especially if you look at the work of very high-end professionals or people who've been established in their market for say 15 years, they often have really basic websites that aren't SEO focused. And that might work for them.

But if you're establishing yourself, you really need to be findable in search. It's true at all levels of the market. I'm sure you're familiar with Think Splendid, and she has done research showing that even people who have a million dollar wedding budget do searches on Google for wedding professionals. And so it's really important to have that focus on SEO without sounding like a robot, right? We're all like beholden to Google, but we don't have to sound like we're writing beholden to Google essentially. Yeah, I'm always shocked at how

little some people prioritize SEO and how sometimes it's not even something they consider in their marketing. They're so focused on social media and Instagram, and maybe they think that SEO is difficult or it's maybe outside the scope of what they can figure out on their own. And you're missing out on so many opportunities by not having a search engine strategy and incorporating that.

into your copy. I also think, and you tell me what you think, Andrea, I feel like knowing SEO is only going to help you become better at social media because social media is becoming that search engine that Gen Z is using and that customers are using more and more to find information and inspiration. So if you know the tenants of SEO, then you can just carry that over into social media too. Yeah, especially I would say TikTok and YouTube, but those are search engines functionally. And when people are looking to

higher wedding professionals. I don't know that they turn to YouTube as much. They may find informational content there, but especially TikTok. It's here as far as I know it's not going away. And if you can learn to optimize your TikTok videos for searchers, which isn't that different than optimizing your website for searchers, you're going to put yourself in a better position ultimately as a business owner. Oh yeah, because it's...

Candice (14:57.07)

Google is prioritizing TikTok in search engine results, which is kind of fascinating. It's prioritizing YouTube because it's all part of Google's universe, but it's also prioritizing TikTok videos. It's frustrating that Instagram doesn't... Your videos aren't as searchable on Google or not really at all when it comes to Instagram. I feel like that's such a miss. It is. In general, I think Instagram searchability, even searching usernames is...

is not easy on there. I feel like you and I could probably talk for hours about how Instagram is such a valuable tool and also you can't build your whole business on Instagram because you never know what's going to happen. Even today, I mean, I'm sitting here saying this and they were down for several hours today and luckily it seems like they resolved it quickly, but you never know when that's going to happen for an extended period. It's true. Yeah. You have to diversify how people find you and good copy helps you to do that in multiple places. What's great about knowing...

who your business serves and how you want to communicate your messages, then you can take that message and not only put it on your website, but you can also put it in all the places where your business shows up. Exactly. And your copy should be repurposable a little bit. Once that's a new word, I just invented that. But we're all asked to be on so many platforms at the same time. And I would never want to give anyone the impression that they can't repurpose a little bit here and a little bit there because you are only one person. And even if you have a team.

your team is still not as big as a giant content creator, but at the same time, we're all expected to create content. So re-purpose your web copy. I give you permission. Oh yeah, for sure. All right. So if we fix these mistakes, what do you feel like are the results that people can get? If we pay attention to these four big mistakes that you see us making, what's the opposite side of it? What should begin happening? So there's a couple different things that can happen with your leads. First of all, if you optimize your web copy.

you can get more leads if that's your goal. Now I know that's not everyone's goal. Some people's goal is to get better leads. And when I say better, I mean more aligned with your values, more interested in your artistry, maybe just able to pay the prices that you wanna charge that make your business sustainable. There's a lot of different ways to identify your ideal lead, but your copy should be filtering out people who aren't a perfect match for your business. Another one is ghosting.

Candice (17:19.058)

And I have heard so many complaints on social media in this season about ghosting. And one thing that I see happening a lot is people don't know what to expect from you. They fill out an inquiry form, then they get some information back. Maybe it's the first time they're seeing details of your pricing and packaging, and it doesn't work for them. And so they ghost. And of course we'd all love if they didn't ghost, but the reality of it is it happens. They're in contact with a ton of people.

But putting that information out there in a way that's easy for them to understand is ideally going to cut back on ghosting a little bit. Oh, that's such a good one. And then another one is referrals. We are all looking for more creative partners to work with. And one thing that I want to emphasize is that your copy is primarily for couples getting married, but it is also for creative partners.

And it is for other decision-makers who might be in a position to hire you or influence the decision to hire you. And so it can help you get more referrals and it can help you step into a role as an educator or a leader in your niche also. That's another thing that I work with a lot of people who are established in their niche. And now they're looking for new revenue streams. They're looking for greater visibility. They're looking, I know you've been on this journey and copy is one of the things that reinforces you as an expert.

Oh yeah, 100%. All right, so let's start off with personality. Let's go mistake by mistake and kind of talk through how you would turn these from weaknesses now into copy strengths. So we'll start with personality. That was mistake number one, not having enough of it or being too like corporate or premier planner about your copy. How do we find this balance in showing our personality? But then also like...

having a level of professionalism. Yeah, and that's always the tricky part, right? And we often convince ourselves that professional means corporate. It means kind of dry and dull. And that's not at all the case. I tell people often your professionalism is as much about how you show up in person, your client experience, the product you deliver, as it is about the tone of voice on your website. If you are delivering a beautiful product or service and you do it with a client experience that's really high touch and personalized,

Candice (19:34.858)

It doesn't matter if you have tattoos or green hair or whatever stereotypical non-professional things there might be. So I do recommend sharing details of your life and you get to have boundaries of course. I'm not telling anyone to share more than they're comfortable with, but sharing details of your life, sharing what you're interested in and really letting your voice shine through. Think about how you talk in the group chat. Think about how you talk in Instagram DMs with a friend or think about how you talk with a client who you're close to towards the end of the planning process.

at whatever point you're involved, and start incorporating some of that language into how you communicate with clients, especially on your website. And you might have sayings or expressions that pop up all the time, but you've avoided using them on your website. Throw them in there. Do that. People want to hear how you really talk ultimately. Yeah. These are great tips. I love inserting a GIF into an email. I feel like that can express personality.

where you might not have a clever saying or a comeback, sharing a gift from one of your favorite TV shows or something, or knowing your lead or your client's favorite TV show and throwing an office gift in there or something can always be kind of fun and show personality. But yeah, I mean, isn't it nice to just be able to be yourself instead of playing some kind of corporate character or character of how you think a wedding photographer is supposed to interact or how you think an invitation designer is supposed to be and just.

be yourself and talk like you talk to whether it's your spouse, your best friend or a client. It's just all the same. Yeah, it's super liberating. And it should feel that way. You know, most of us started a business, if you're a business owner, not to have to conform to somebody else's professional norms and to get to show up and be yourself every day and not feel like your presence is kind of this itchy, too small Halloween costume that you put on because it's all you've got. You know, it should feel great. You should feel really good about showing up as yourself.

I feel like that comes with some maturity in business too. When we start out, we feel like we have to fit a mold and so we might dress a certain way, talk a certain way, be a certain way as sort of like that idealized picture version of the role we're playing in our business. And sometimes it helps us. It helps us kind of get into the mindset that we are a planner or we are this photographer or whatever you do.

Candice (21:50.326)

But at some point you hit the phase where you're like, this actually isn't me though, the person in the headshot, the voice on my website, it's not how I talk, it's not who I've become. And so being able to shed that Halloween costume and just be yourself is so liberating. Yes, it's freeing. And it's, I mean, it's been a process myself. Like I do it for my clients and I still have to do it for myself too. It's never, it's.

Actually, if you've worked in a corporate job, it's never easy. You build almost as protective armor around yourself and your personality, and we're all still kind of hammering away at that a little bit. So also don't feel guilty if your website is not quote unquote packed with personality the first time you write it. It takes time and it takes practice. Yeah. That's a great, great tip. All right. So the next mistake is all around this main character energy. So you and I were talking, we're like, show your personality. You're telling us like you need to embrace your personality. But how do we...

do that without being so I, me, and my in our copy. I wanna share with you a little secret about my time as a wedding planner. I used to dread when couples said they were having a friend or a family member officiate their ceremony, and that's because I knew that at some point, all three of them would turn to me and ask me where they should even start with the ceremony script. But now I feel confident that these couples can have the personal, meaningful, and impressive ceremony

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Candice (24:08.394)

and make sure you print extra copies of the vows and ceremony script just in case. Go to providence.co.uk to learn more, sign up for your free trial, and use the code Candace to save 20%. Thanks to Providence for sponsoring this episode of the Power and Purpose podcast. Now let's get back to the episode. This is where I want to go back to that frame from Story Brand. You need to think of yourself as the guide and them as the heroes. So what?

do they need to know from you and about you to feel like you're the right person to take them on this journey? And you kind of want to emphasize a sense of togetherness and you want to emphasize your unique traits that really position you to be successful. Maybe it's that, for example, I just did a website for a florist, she worked in commercial floristry and went to art school and that's just an amazing combination. She has these two traits. So we wove them into her copy to emphasize.

kind of the double-sided coin of her experience, that she's got the art school vocabulary, but at the same time, she's put in the hours understanding how to create a floral display. So you want to really think about the aspects of your experience that are unique and then frame them in a way that they benefit your client. Why would someone want to hire someone with your expertise? And you have to think through that. It's a little bit of a painful process because no one ever really wants to dig that deep sometimes, but you have to think hard about why someone would be hiring you.

and put that into your copy. Yeah, that's a really great tip. And it's also, if you're struggling with this, this is one of the brilliant excuses to hire a copywriter like Andrea to help you parse through some of this and kind of figure out how do you balance who you are, your message, your expertise with what your ideal client is looking for and why they would wanna hire someone like you. Yeah, and it is, we always say, it's hard to read the label from inside the jar. Sometimes it's hard to see the amazing things about your business.

when you're looking for them. And you can also, if you're DIYing, you can ask friends, you can ask former clients, you can ask partners that you've worked with on weddings before to also give you some insight into what makes you so unique. Your next mistake was just giving people too much information or making it complicated, using industry jargon to where they feel like things are above their head or they just literally do not understand what you're trying to say. So for everybody listening, I think...

Candice (26:30.578)

every single person listening needs to simplify how they're presenting their pricing and their services. I know this because I've seen everybody's pricing the packages and I'm like, oh my God. What are some tips for simplifying how we share our packages and services so that we can make it not so overwhelming or really like industry lingo heavy? So first of all, I'd say grab a friend or a family member. Think about that one family member who doesn't really get all the nuances of what you do.

That's the person you want. Sit them down and ask them to go through your services page or your investment guide as if they were going to book you for a wedding and call out the stuff that they don't know. Because I guarantee that you are probably using too many bullet points on your packages and details that are relevant to you as an industry professional, but not to them. So an example I see on photographer's sites is how many photographs people usually get per hour of coverage.

For a client that doesn't have a number in their head, that's not really relevant to them. And then once they see it, they start worrying, okay, well, you said you deliver 70 per hour, but the next photographer I looked at says they deliver 100, is that better? Do I want more? Is that really relevant to the experience that they're gonna get? I don't personally think so in most cases. Another example I use is like, if you're a venue, people don't need to know when they're first inquiring the exact specs of every room that you offer.

They need a sense of the vibe and they need to know a little bit about, you know, what features you offer as a venue, but they don't need the exact square footage of the ballroom when they're not even sure you're available on their date. And it's stuff like that we often talk about. One thing I've picked up on a lot over some time spent researching what people say in wedding forums is for a lot of people...

they are consuming a ton of information without even knowing if you're available on their date. And that is the first threshold they need to cross. So remember that everything you ask someone to consume, you might be asking them to consume only to find out that you're booked for their date. And they want a relatively straightforward availability confirmation without having to wade through a ton of excess information. Oh my God, in your 35 step.

Candice (28:45.134)

process in sales, by the way. I'm like, I could sit on my soapbox, stand on my soapbox about how complicated everybody is making the sales process, making all the processes in their business with just too much info or too many milestones, too many touch points, too much stuff. So this is such a timely message to just simplify things. And yeah, ask your uncle Jerry, who doesn't know the first thing about hiring a wedding photographer, to tell you about your packages based on your...

your, his review of your services guide or your investment guide. Exactly. And then drip information out as people need it. So you probably have multiple touch points. You have the, and maybe they start out on your website, you have an investment guide, and then you go to a proposal and a contract. That's where you want to give them stuff like the square footage or how much it costs to put a dance floor over the pool or whatever. They don't need to know all of that until they're a lot closer to hiring you. And then they need all the details to make a final decision.

Yeah. I feel like sometimes the decision to include so much is a reaction from, well, you didn't tell us that before we hired you, or if we had known that, we would have made a different decision. And so sometimes there's this reaction of like, well, let me just tell them everything. Like everything. And let me leave no stone unturned so that nobody will question the

or whether or not this room has a bathroom. Do you think there's a balance between covering your ends or communicating the importance of what needs to be known and finding the right stage of the sales process to make sure that's communicated and maybe it's just not right at the beginning or even in the middle? Yeah, exactly. Exactly what you said. You definitely want to cover yourself and protect yourself against those complaints later, against someone not...

knowing what's in the contract, that sort of thing. So you just wanna spread that information out through your sales process and it also protects your energy to a certain extent. You don't have to go in all these details until you're relatively confident that you'd like to work with someone that you're in their budget. You know, maybe you've spoken with them and now you give them a detailed proposal. And it depends on what sales process you use, but some of that information can come when you're a lot more confident they're gonna book. And when you have a sense of what they need to know, by all means.

Candice (31:12.13)

The details should be in the contract, but, and they should probably be highlighted in the proposal too, depending on your particular line of work, but they don't necessarily all need to be on your website. You have to think of your website as having one particular goal, and that goal is usually for most of us to get someone to inquire with us. And then the next goal will be to move them a little bit further along in the sales process with each step that you take. What do we do to make...

the client experience on our websites better and get people to hype to work with us. So like, what are some tips for us to make our website a place where people are like, I wanna take that next step, I want to inquire? So I think one thing that really helps is that weddings are an experience that invokes all five senses. You're going to have all kinds of, it's kind of odd to say, but sensory experiences on a wedding day. And I think a lot of wedding professionals make the mistake of not evoking.

all of those details and it can really help create this picture in someone's mind of what their wedding day is going to be like or what their experience with you is going to be like because perhaps you're a salon that sells wedding dresses and you're still trying to persuade people to come through your doors and have this champagne moment, this say yes to the dress moment. So you want to get them a little bit emotional and you want to also really touch on those senses and give them this ability to picture.

what their experience working with you is going to be like and really insert themselves into something. And I think one thing that I often notice when people do their own copy is they rely on generalities rather than specifics. And the more specific detail you can give about something, the more evocative it is. So talk about if you're a floral designer, name check some of the flowers you use in the spring. If you are a caterer, mention a specific entree or a specific style of food that you do.

Talk about a couple of past weddings that you've done in a way that helps people picture what they were like, rather than being so general and saying, a lot of times we fall back on like, we do bespoke, we do custom, we do this, we do that. What does that look like? Show an example of that. Oh, that's such a great point. Those are buzzwords that you see a lot in wedding pros copy, but their descriptions of things and their services all feel a bit generic. So you're trying to...

Candice (33:30.626)

the client's trying to also compute like, well, this sounds like everybody else's website. So what's so bespoke about the work they're doing or what's so custom about what the work is that they're doing? I loved your tip too about including details, like small details that invoke a feeling or a scent or a memory. It grabs people and they feel that they become invested in it. Storytelling is so important and you don't have to be like the world's greatest writer in order to tell an interesting story or to share more about the work that you do.

Exactly. And you have a wealth of experience to draw on too. By the time you've been in business for a couple of years, any of my clients that I talked to have fascinating stories about the different weddings they've worked and you don't even have to go into the negative. Sometimes people want to share that they can overcome all these obstacles, but sometimes you can keep it really positive and just share about the joyful experiences you've created for people. Well, speaking of writing copy, it's not difficult, but it is difficult. And for a lot

I find that too, it begins to spiral because they want to refresh their brand or they want to refresh their website. And so they hire a brand designer or a website designer. And then now they're like, okay, where's your copy? And then they're like, what are you talking about? And it becomes this really difficult process that takes forever. And it's just, it's never fun. And so for those listening who are like, you know what, I feel like I need to work on my message. I need to work on my copy.

How do you know when it's time to actually let someone else take the reins on that and not do it yourself? So the first thing I'd say is that you don't have to invest in copywriting right from the start. And I know that might sound counterintuitive coming from a copywriter, but I find that most people who have not been in business for particularly long need some clarity on their ideal client. They need some clarity on the work they love doing. And a lot of times if you hire someone right when you launch your business, a year down the road, you're going to be...

refining your idea of the work you want to do. So wait until you've been a year or two in business, unless you have been doing some work for somebody else and you've developed a pretty clear idea of who you're going to serve now that you open your own business. But from there, I think a lot of the time, my clients come to me for two reasons. One, they founded their business on the back of DIY copy and it served them really well.

Candice (35:47.094)

but now they are serving a slightly different client than they did before. The price point is a little different. Their client avatar has shifted and they know that but don't know exactly, one, how to articulate who the new ideal client is or two, how to then write copy that appeals to that new ideal client. And the other time people come to me is a lot of times when they're looking to evolve their business beyond just its initial purpose. So they're becoming an educator. They want more visibility.

Maybe they've been in business for quite some time, but they feel like they're shedding some services and adding new ones. And so that's another time when people come. And yes, also, if you're investing in a rebrand and a redesign and you've hired a website designer, consider doing the copy as well. I know you had Alex on not that long ago to talk about design. She and I talk a lot and both of us will happily tell you that if you invest in copy and design simultaneously, you will get the best results.

you can get good results with one or the other, but when we can collaborate, you're going to get the most powerful results. Now, what should we look for in a copywriter? This is probably a service that most people maybe never envision they'd have to hire someone to do for them. And so I think they have questions around like, well, what should I be looking for when I make this decision? I'm going to outsource this. Like, how do I know where to look and like, what to look for in a copywriter? So the first thing I'd say is that

We are a little bit chameleons. So if you go to my website and you read my copy, I have a fairly distinct voice. That is not the voice I use for all my clients. And you wanna look through someone's portfolio to make sure that it reflects a variety of clients. Different, you don't have to read a voice that sounds exactly like you to judge whether you wanna hire a copywriter, but you wanna make sure that they're able to write for a variety of different businesses with different tones of voice. I would also say that it's worth it to look for someone

either has some SEO knowledge or can partner with someone that has some SEO knowledge. Because again, if you're investing in website copy, you should get that SEO juice. You should have it. It should be part of the foundation of your business. So definitely look for someone who has some knowledge in that arena as well. And then I'd also say you want to make sure you feel comfortable opening up to someone because

Candice (38:04.254)

It's often like, and I'm sure you've heard this term used before, it's like brand therapy, like business therapy. You know, people sit down, I give them a long questionnaire and they fill it out in detail and then often both on a discovery call and then on our initial kickoff call, they go into a ton of depth. They're almost like word vomiting about their business. And that's what I'm there for. I love it. They, people apologize for rambling. And I say, no, no such thing with a copywriter. Like it's all material, but you want to feel comfortable opening up to someone. And you want to feel like you can trust them.

when you talk through your business and have these business epiphanies. So it's very common for me to talk to someone who's interviewing two, three, four copywriters and just seeing who they click with best personally, because that's really vital too. Yeah, I agree. I'll tell you, there's nothing better than having a copywriter completely understand who you are and you only had like a conversation or two, but they did all their research, they did all their homework on you.

and they were able to sort of see how you talk, how you use your hands, how your reflection of your voice, and then they give back to you copy that sounds like it came from your mouth. There's nothing better than somebody capturing your essence, your voice, who you are, and doing it for you and being able to deliver that to you. It is so rewarding. It's such a great investment. And it also gives you so much permission because when someone else writes it for you, it's like,

Well, Andrea wrote it for me, so I have to use it. Like she's telling me I need to use these emails. I need to use this is what I need to use for this, and this is what I need to say here. You just trust that she's giving you because she's the expert. And so you might find yourself marketing in a way or saying things in a way that pushes you outside your comfort zone in a good way. I think that is so astute. But yes, pushing you outside your comfort zone a tiny bit, especially because oftentimes,

I'll talk to someone's clients, I'll read all their reviews, I'll read all their Instagram comments. Like I go to places that you can barely imagine. And I'll often see things about them that are incredibly positive that they haven't picked up on themselves. That, like I said, can't read the label from inside the jar. You sometimes are not able to see what other people see in your business and make it evident. And so I always consider it my job to find those things. To say,

Candice (40:24.558)

People are raving about your calm demeanor, but you've never once mentioned that. We need that to come through in your copy. We need your ability to get a great photo out of a grumpy toddler in a family scenario, or your ability to talk to that Uncle Jerry and make small talk if you have to. Whatever it is that you can do, sometimes it takes one, talking to your clients, and two, just having another person involved to really see it.

Oh yeah, your superpowers, your hidden superpowers that you don't even pay attention to, that you don't even think anything of. Your copywriter will sort of bring out and help you share. So I love that point. Andrea, you offer one-on-one copywriting services in two formats. Would you mind just sharing with our audience what that looks like so that in case they want to connect with you, they know how? Absolutely. So I do, like you said, one-to-one custom copywriting projects. Usually they start with a website.

and then also include other assets. So for people that might be investment guides or it might be email sequences to go out to potential clients on a wait list or anything along those lines. So we start with a website, build you a great website with SEO and it sounds like you. And then from there we can add on any other aspects of your business that you just wanna.

Especially those backend systems that are really important for kind of a luxury client experience, get them all sounding like you. And then the other thing I do is website copy audits for clients who have written their own website copy but want someone to come in, give them some suggestions, ideas of where they can punch things up, refresh, copy and all of that. So I also offer that if you've got an existing website but feel like it needs just a little bit of a makeover. Great. I love it.

When somebody is looking to invest in a copywriter, what's one thing they can make sure they have ready for that relationship? Is it a question they should be able to answer? What do you think they should just have ready in their mind or be ready to share or be ready to do? I think it's always valuable to ask a little bit about your copywriter's process, find out how it is that they get to the heart of what they.

Candice (42:34.166)

what they do and find out one, how to emulate your voice and two, find out what your clients are thinking. And we all love to talk about that. So don't hold back from asking that. And then as far as what you might want to have ready before you hire a copywriter, it's always beneficial to have a pretty good idea of what your offers are gonna be for the foreseeable future. And also if you have reviews or past clients to talk to, nothing will endear you to your copywriter faster.

Oh my gosh, yes. That is such a great point. And it literally could be like maybe sending out a little testimonial questionnaire to your recent clients and asking some really key questions. You may want to work with your copywriter on what those questions can be and then get that information to share with them. But what you've just said is so approachable. I think sometimes we feel like we have to have all this stuff ready before we can engage a copywriter. Like we need to know all this stuff.

Sure, I think you need to kind of understate, like you said, you need to know what services you're gonna provide, what your offers are gonna be, what your core products are, and have a good idea of the types of clients you wanna attract, but outside of that, your copywriter should be able to help you figure out some of the other big components. Absolutely, and even like you said, an idea of the ideal client is good. You don't have to have every detail nailed down. That's part of our job, is to figure out.

those little commonalities and those threads that go between the four couples you tell me you loved working with in the past year. What are their commonalities and how can we clone them? How can we replicate them so that you have more of them in your pipeline? Oh my God. Amazing. Well, will you share where somebody can connect with you about your services and where they may connect with you on social? Yeah, absolutely. So you can connect with me at andreascha.com.

super simple for the website. And then Andrea shot copy on Instagram or on threads, both of which are my guilty pleasures in life. I'm loving threads. I feel like threads has been such a great place to sort of speak your mind, to share ideas and to connect with people. It feels kind of like just a big group chat where we can all relax a little bit with no pressure to show up on camera and that sort of thing. And I love it. Yeah, I agree. Well, Andrea, thank you so much for coming on today's episode of the show.

Candice (44:47.778)

Thank you so much for having me. It was great. All right, friend. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the show. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Andrea's mistakes. Which ones resonate the most with you? Are you making any of these mistakes on your website? Let me know. Hit me over in the broadcast channel on Instagram. I'll drop all of Andrea's information inside the show notes in case you'd like to connect with her.

Whether you are ready to interview copywriters or this is on one of your business bucket lists, you know you wanna do it, she is definitely somebody to earmark and check back in with when you are ready, if that is not right now. And she's just a great person to follow and know. I think she is all over the place sharing lots of great tips and helping to connect you to your copy and your messaging better. So make sure you go and follow her on Instagram and on threads.

where she's dropping deep thoughts and hot takes. And yeah, that's it for today's episode. So thank you so much for listening. And as always, I'm here to remind you that there's so much power in your purpose. Until next time. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Power and Purpose Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and consider leaving a review.

Head over to power and purpose podcast and.com to access all of the resources and links mentioned in today's episode. That's power and purpose podcast.com. I'll see you next time.